Stock Trading Gurus, What's The Catch?

[Kingofclubz]

Hi All,

I have been studying trading for only 3 months now and it all started after seeing one of the many trading Guru videos that are on YouTube. They fill these promotional videos full of bling, cars and the "dream" to substantiate their claims of success and how they can teach anybody by subscribing to their content and DVD's (for a fee). I am aware that there have been con-artists and "get rich quick" systems since the dawn of time, Although I have been unable to find any "smoking gun" to debunk the claims that these gurus make as I am naturally skeptical when anyone makes grand claims.

You will all be aware of the gurus such as Tim Sykes, Jason Bond, Tim Grittani, Warrior trading etc etc the list goes on there are plenty of them. Are the sources (gurus) that I am currently learning from misleading/wasting my time if i am serious about trading?

All the negative comments that I have found on forums calling them scammers etc etc never have any substance behind them. I value the opinion of traders and veterans of the trading game much more so than random forum posters or even the Gurus themselves. A fact that has left me unable to decide if I am learning from the right sources is that all these Gurus stress the importance of hard work, and also insist that new traders paper trade over a period of time so that the strategies can be proven on paper before starting with real money. This seems very logical, and would go against what I would have thought a con-artist or fake overstating the benefits but understating the work would preach.

Giving these gurus the benefit of the doubt, I have also thought that maybe they are teaching strategies that no longer work as well as they used to? And in an attempt to capitalize on a market that they see will be coming to a severe slowdown these traders have now migrated to a more profitable business model?

If these strategies DO work and become main stream, what effect will this have on trading as we know it? The online poker industry went through a transition when it boomed around 06'. There was a lot of new players and the sharks/pros made a lot of money, win rates sky rocketed and baller lifestyles were born and flaunted. Then a lot of them transitioned to teaching as this was less stressful and equally if not more lucrative,Over the next few years the liquidity dried up of losing players and also narrowed the edge that pro's and semi competent players had against each other now that the game had less "fish" to feed off.


Do veterans of the trading game see any changes coming if education and trading strategies become main stream leaving less dead money out in the market?

Sorry if my grammer is terrible and the post isnt structured right, But hopefully some of the long term traders can shed some light on this dillema to a new guy starting out in this field.

Highly motivated and just as confused! Thanks

 

[minwa]

All the negative comments that I have found on forums calling them scammers etc etc never have any substance behind them.

What EXACTLY are you looking for substance ? Proof that the students took the trades according to rules and lost money over time with brokerage statements to back it up ? You will not get that - that may be against the laws diverging rules of sold material & most people especially losers are unlikely to show you their brokerage.

A fact that has left me unable to decide if I am learning from the right sources is that all these Gurus stress the importance of hard work, and also insist that new traders paper trade over a period of time so that the strategies can be proven on paper before starting with real money. This seems very logical, and would go against what I would have thought a con-artist or fake overstating the benefits but understating the work would preach.

A good con artist makes themselves not to appear like a con artist so of course their words will be sweet and logical. And of course they like people trading on demo OVER TIME (translation: longer subscription fees collected). Demo is also not representative of real trading - it's EASIER than real trading to easier fool people. Less slippage/better fills/no real money emotions.

Do veterans of the trading game see any changes coming if education and trading strategies become main stream leaving less dead money out in the market?

No, 99%+ of stuff taught don't work. I see the opposite - more dumb money dumbed down by rehashed education that don't work = easier money to be preyed.

---

Don't take my word for it though - spend a few hundred dollars and subscribe to a guru for a few months. It's part of the education. I paid thousands over years on a few courses and even after wiping account I kept defending the educator - I was not willing to let that false hope die. It also meant I was wrong and wasted my time all those time.

Do I regret it now ? Nop it probably fast tracked the process of getting out of the delusioned mass.

 

[Kingofclubz]

What EXACTLY are you looking for substance ? Proof that the students took the trades according to rules and lost money over time with brokerage statements to back it up ? You will not get that - that may be against the laws diverging rules of sold material & most people especially losers are unlikely to show you their brokerage.




A good con artist makes themselves not to appear like a con artist so of course their words will be sweet and logical. And of course they like people trading on demo OVER TIME (translation: longer subscription fees collected). Demo is also not representative of real trading - it's EASIER than real trading to easier fool people. Less slippage/better fills/no real money emotions.



No, 99%+ of stuff taught don't work. I see the opposite - more dumb money dumbed down by rehashed education that don't work = easier money to be preyed.

---

Don't take my word for it though - spend a few hundred dollars and subscribe to a guru for a few months. It's part of the education. I paid thousands over years on a few courses and even after wiping account I kept defending the educator - I was not willing to let that false hope die. It also meant I was wrong and wasted my time all those time.

Do I regret it now ? Nop it probably fast tracked the process of getting out of the delusioned mass.

Hi Mate,

Appreciate your reply,

I think I need to be shown the line in the sand to where the gurus truth ends and the smoke screen begins. I learnt this the long and hard way when learning poker, and with hindsight it was detrimental to my progression. Sure it got me into the game, but it took me around the garden path until I realised I was on a merry go round and started learning the right way (years) so I am extremely fearful not to go down that path again with trading.

The Gurus claim to show their trades with complete transparency (winners and losers) so surely someone out there who has been doing this for a long time has back tested the claims right? I mean there seems to be something missing on both the FOR and AGAINST when it comes to these guys, and for somebody new to the game who is looking to learn the right way the direction is extremely confusing.

I have seen consistently on forums traders say ALL forms of formal education (gurus or any paid courses) are a waste of time. From my experience with poker (the correlation between skillsets is insane) I know that trading is very SIMPLE yet is made overcomplicated, I also know that there are only a handful of KEY skills that need to be learnt and applied over time and over a large sample size so these become second nature. I still have not found clarity as to what those few skillsets are. Knowing that I am swimming through metres of mud to get to a few stones at the bottom of a pool is frustrating, because once I find them only THEN does the learning time curve begin.

Thanks again!

 

[mjim]

Age old issue I think

Ask yourself few questions
- If these Gurus are so good then 1, why are they not making money by trading what they teach! with own money or 2) start a regulated Managed fund... and some did like Peter Spann ( but that is a diff saga)
and if they do then where is audited proof?
- perhaps they make more money by selling seminars/ software than actually trading
- Are they at least qualified and licence in a "good" jurisdiction.
- Imagine if they know the secret sauce then why would they share it?
- Imagine big banks/ fin instos ,they have the money / manpower .. why don;t you see they flogging their "System"
- Why are there so many question marks on this industry? DO you see same amount of Crooks in other industry flogging such education.... how many graphic artists flogging "design courses" to get rich quick by becoming a Graphic designer?

Now the counter argument is "what is wrong in selling trading education" just like any other profession!

Per say nothing ! and the "Gurus" will resist your questions/ evade them and even ridicule you for asking any pointed questions ...the issue is when it is soled as "easy solution to make money with unbelievable promises" at highly inflated prices.. these carrots are dangled either directly or indirectly and people get sucked in to it

So for example lets take "Option trading" in particular "Covered call writing ( - selling call options on stock you own)
It is an attractive but a complex strategy and one may need "education"
Unfortunately this CC was/ is sold with all the hype mentioned above and people lost money

Also understand the diff bet a BLACK BOX and TOOL BOX when it comes to software


There is a big diff between proper TAFE/ Uni education and these "Guru" education"
So be very very careful.

at the end of the day it is your hard earned money!

 

[Smurf1976]

If I come up with some brilliant way of making money then why wouldn't I just use it myself or sell it to a bank etc for $ millions? Then retire and go and do whatever.

Why would I go to all the trouble of teaching people, each paying me a relatively small sum of money, if it really is so good? Why?

There's your answer. If it's really so good then whoever's promoting it will have far better things to do then spend their time teaching and, in any event, what on earth do they want with your $500 (etc) if they can just sit in front of a computer and make $ millions far more easily?

If someone really has found an easy cure for cancer or something like that then I can understand why they might take the altruistic approach and want to disseminate their knowledge to as many as possible. Trading shares isn't in that category though and in any event they're charging for the information not giving it away.

 

[CanOz]

My view on this is that experienced traders and investor use thier knowledge to sell newsletrers and education for a very simple reason, cash flow. Its good business. There are heaps of good educators out there as well as heaps more bad ones. The trick is to weed out the good ones from the bad ones. The retail punter is more lucrative than trading in most cases. Its a steady income of auto renewing subscriptions.

A few guys (all on twitter) that i really believe have something worth listening too are:

1.) Nick Radge - Systematic and Pattern Trading - equities
2.) FT71 - Futures
3.) Kam Dhadwar - Futures
4.) Brannigan Barret - Futures
5.) Lee Gibbs & Dan Goldberg - Futures

Some of these guys don't even sell anything, they just tweet.

As for Sykes, there's no doubt he was a good trader, at some point. I don't think his style of promotion lends himself to a high degree of credibility with the majority of experienced traders now though. He may have some good stuff to offer, but be careful paying allot of money for courses....you may end up disappointed if they're not that relevant anymore of useless to you in a different time zone.

If you're young, the best advice is likely to go for a training in a prop shop or get onto an equity trading desk at a bank or fund..

 

[CanOz]

If I come up with some brilliant way of making money then why wouldn't I just use it myself or sell it to a bank etc for $ millions? Then retire and go and do whatever.

There are few if any ways to make millions in the market in a short period of time for an individual.

Why would I go to all the trouble of teaching people, each paying me a relatively small sum of money, if it really is so good? Why?

Cash flow, good business. Some people actually make good teachers and mentors and enjoy it.

There's your answer. If it's really so good then whoever's promoting it will have far better things to do then spend their time teaching and, in any event, what on earth do they want with your $500 (etc) if they can just sit in front of a computer and make $ millions far more easily?

Trading has its ups and downs, its less stressful to sit back and make the auto renew $$$

If someone really has found an easy cure for cancer or something like that then I can understand why they might take the altruistic approach and want to disseminate their knowledge to as many as possible. Trading shares isn't in that category though and in any event they're charging for the information not giving it away.

Its just another side of the business to take up the slack when things are not going so well, thats called drawdown and its easier to take while the cash is still coming in. Tom Dante once said that if he can make 5k a month trading and 5k a month on an education service and didn't have the 3 hours commute to London every day, why not!

 

[skc]

Highly motivated and just as confused! Thanks

Listen to a few podcasts here. Won't give you all the answers, but might give you hints of what are the right questions.

https://chatwithtraders.com/

 

[VSntchr]

There are few if any ways to make millions in the market in a short period of time for an individual.
Cash flow, good business. Some people actually make good teachers and mentors and enjoy it.
Trading has its ups and downs, its less stressful to sit back and make the auto renew $$$
Its just another side of the business to take up the slack when things are not going so well, thats called drawdown and its easier to take while the cash is still coming in. Tom Dante once said that if he can make 5k a month trading and 5k a month on an education service and didn't have the 3 hours commute to London every day, why not!

Good post Can.

Some negatives of trading are that you are don't have colleagues, workplace culture or really much contact at all with society in true face-to-face form. Branching out into education or some other trading related business can help to fulfill a traders mental/emotional gaps that the strict trading path leaves.

 

[CanOz]

Good post Can.

Some negatives of trading are that you are don't have colleagues, workplace culture or really much contact at all with society in true face-to-face form. Branching out into education or some other trading related business can help to fulfill a traders mental/emotional gaps that the strict trading path leaves.

Yeah it really sucks not having someone around locally that trades the same way....just to share ideas

 

[Kingofclubz]

Thank you all for the replies so far, I really really appreciate it and this type of feedback is what can help a new trader tremendously, as to not find themselves chasing ghosts for months/years.

My view on this is that experienced traders and investor use thier knowledge to sell newsletrers and education for a very simple reason, cash flow. Its good business. There are heaps of good educators out there as well as heaps more bad ones. The trick is to weed out the good ones from the bad ones. The retail punter is more lucrative than trading in most cases. Its a steady income of auto renewing subscriptions.

A few guys (all on twitter) that i really believe have something worth listening too are:

1.) Nick Radge - Systematic and Pattern Trading - equities
2.) FT71 - Futures
3.) Kam Dhadwar - Futures
4.) Brannigan Barret - Futures
5.) Lee Gibbs & Dan Goldberg - Futures

Some of these guys don't even sell anything, they just tweet.

As for Sykes, there's no doubt he was a good trader, at some point. I don't think his style of promotion lends himself to a high degree of credibility with the majority of experienced traders now though. He may have some good stuff to offer, but be careful paying allot of money for courses....you may end up disappointed if they're not that relevant anymore of useless to you in a different time zone.

If you're young, the best advice is likely to go for a training in a prop shop or get onto an equity trading desk at a bank or fund..

Great post, Will definitely follow those up.

Listen to a few podcasts here. Won't give you all the answers, but might give you hints of what are the right questions.

https://chatwithtraders.com/

I have listened to about 5-6 of these podcasts already, and they are great. Although they seem to be feel good stories for the most part, good for direction and perspective but little usable content for the beginner so far..I will continue to listen to them.

Good post Can.

Some negatives of trading are that you are don't have colleagues, workplace culture or really much contact at all with society in true face-to-face form. Branching out into education or some other trading related business can help to fulfill a traders mental/emotional gaps that the strict trading path leaves.

This is definitely something I can see to be a big setback in the learning curve, not having that local or live contact with someone to bounce ideas to and from and have strategies or ideas criticized and torn apart before applying them. One thing that helped me to a large degree with the poker curve was live Skype groups and team speak groups where we would share hand histories and you would get many perspectives on the same play/trade. Forums were great for static feedback, but the live dynamics of a conversation can be so helpful even if everyone in the room is a novice, I am interested in this if there is something similar in the trading community?

 

[minwa]

This is definitely something I can see to be a big setback in the learning curve, not having that local or live contact with someone to bounce ideas to and from and have strategies or ideas criticized and torn apart before applying them. One thing that helped me to a large degree with the poker curve was live Skype groups and team speak groups where we would share hand histories and you would get many perspectives on the same play/trade. Forums were great for static feedback, but the live dynamics of a conversation can be so helpful even if everyone in the room is a novice, I am interested in this if there is something similar in the trading community?

There are lots but there are many problems. Not many will show you their results as that's pretty personal so you don't really know who you are learning/discussing with - until after associating with them for a long time - and that's a lot of time wasted if they turned out to be not what you aspire to.

You can also have 2 vastly opposing methods making money for example a break out player vs a support/resistance reversal trader which means it is very hard to find someone/group that fits your personal beliefs and there's bound to be clashes.

I've spent probably at least 10 thousand and uh "electronically sampled" let's just say hundreds of thousands dollar worth of paid material, last count years ago it was about 300GB worth of files. 95% of it useless BS that I want my time back for, it's all the same regurgitated stuff from traditional books or from the internet.

Find out what style of trade/invest you want to do then go from there, read the forum for recommendations on materials.

 

[hamli]

You can also have 2 vastly opposing methods making money for example a break out player vs a support/resistance reversal trader which means it is very hard to find someone/group that fits your personal beliefs and there's bound to be clashes.

As minwa said. It is difficult unless you find some one that trades the same way you do.

There are a number of strong willed successful traders on here, that will claim their approach is a lot better than another ones approach. And that other peoples approach suck, are a scam/fraud or whatever. But I read it as the approach did not suit their style.

Tim Sykes is probably genuine. But he does mention that he spends hours on end researching companies and that his strategy cannot be scaled due to the nature of the companies that he is investing in. His income now is probably 1 part investment to 15 part education sale (was on one of his social media feeds). Personally, his style does not suit me.

If you are looking for people, you need to first indicate what your 'style is' or if you are searching for styles, maybe reach out and find what people are doing.

Good luck.

 

[tech/a]

What are we actually discussing

(1) Educators
or
(2) Black box method sellers eg optionetics and the like.
or
(3) Traders who educate?

I have a question for you all.

What do you actually need to know to be able to trade consistently
profitably?
What do we need to learn to be able to "FISH" for the rest of our life
when ever we want to?

There are so many ways to Fish/Trade why cant we determine HOW we trade after
we learn---- HOW to trade consistently profitably.

What do all the traders who CAN trade consistently profitably have in common
that all those traders who cant trade don't have?

Every fisherman can fish
Every pilot can fly a plane
Every builder can build a house

Different Fish
Different Planes
Different Houses

Because they have learnt how to.

ONCE they know HOW to trade they can THEN seek out experts in
the area they want to become EXPERT in their own right.

People seek the wrong thing!

 

[Wysiwyg]

I have a question for you all.

What do you actually need to know to be able to trade consistently
profitably?

1) An event repeats
2) The position size is in line with personal risk tolerance and market context
3) A strictly adhered to pre determined exit point for either gain or loss
4) Aggregate gains are greater than aggragate loss

 

[Quant]

What do you actually need to know to be able to trade consistently
profitably?

!

Define Probability whilst managing Possibilty within a definable repeatable system that has proven positive expectancy , simple really