Good book on VSA and Wyckoff?

[tech/a]

Put in context to the comment…

People can’t accept VSA is the answer.

It’s not the friggin answer, So I stand by my statement

So the secret of trading is VSA? Give me a break.

Talk about making stupid comments.

If your trading shorter term being able to read Volume and Range IS a huge edge.
You havent used it so
Give ME a break.

 

[tech/a]

tech, what do you look for on very low volume?

Im currently trading the SPI and taking piks as volume analysis indicates

Buy/Stay in/Get out/
Ill post up at the end of the trade.

The notations should answer your question.

 

[tech/a]

Im currently trading the SPI and taking piks as volume analysis indicates

Buy/Stay in/Get out/
Ill post up at the end of the trade.

The notations should answer your question.

Trade closed

Will reply with charts once I mark them up and have time.
All can clearly see the time at the bottom of the chart so you will be able to see the chart read as each chart is presented Picked up 21 ticks x 2 or $550
In just over 30 mins.
Have meetings in 30 min so wont open another trade now.
Happy with time spent and return.

Back later.

 

[tech/a]

Ok Over that trade I took shots of 14 or so charts.
Each at points of reference.
Each chart you can see the time (Its a 1 min chart) along the bottom
So the comments relate to decisions going forward.
This goes on from Buy to Hold To Exit.

My mainframe at the office has an issue so cant access Outlook I was going to post the charts home to mark up and post.

So cant do that immediately but when I get the problem finished I will open a new thread

"Reading a trade with VSA a working example."

 

[joea]

Where can I find this one mate? I'm having some trouble on Google.

The only book on VSA I've read is "Master the Markets" which everyone else has also.

The Wyckoff books that I downloaded are:
- How I Trade and Invest in Stocks and Bonds
- Day Trader's Bible

I am yet to read either of those last two books yet. Has anyone else read them? Which one is better? are their other books he has that are 'must reads'?

Trading in the Shadow of Smart money is on Tradeguider site, but the first 4 chapters are words, then there is VSA, then there are some chapters on the software.
joea

 

[joea]

If your trading shorter term being able to read Volume and Range IS a huge edge.
You havent used it so
Give ME a break.

I agree with you tech/a 100%.
Having been alerted to VSA by this forum I have followed it up.
The answer is in the volume/ bar realationship.

However there are many sites showing how indicators and proprietary indicator work.
They may get part of the job done but they are not as acurate as the basic principle of VSA. "SUCH IS LIFE"

joea

 

[tech/a]

I agree with you tech/a 100%.
Having been alerted to VSA by this forum I have followed it up.
The answer is in the volume/ bar realationship.

However there are many sites showing how indicators and proprietary indicator work.
They may get part of the job done but they are not as acurate as the basic principle of VSA. "SUCH IS LIFE"

joea

True.
I've seen lots of code which supposedly duplicates VSA signals
It doesn't and from the signals generated it's very clear that those coding it up have no idea.
Unfortunately people want an indicator which gives an arrow which says buy and another which says sell.
Tradeguider arrows indicate WHAT the bar or bars INDICATE
A particular action in volume and range.
The trick is in application.

IT'S A SECRET
Which seems to have upset a few has nothing to do with VSA
And everything to do with not wanting a zillion private mails wanting the
Books I offered to the poster.
So once again what you think you see isn't what's there!

 

[Frank D]

Most including you Frank " think" you know how to read and apply VSA -- they and you don't. If you did you wouldn't be making such stupid unsupported statements.

Since I don’t know VSA, I’ll give my opinion by what you have posted on the
other thread regarding trading the SPI.

Firstly, nice trading from an experienced trader, when the pattern has a reliable
edge of working:- hitting resistance

VSA:- fancy name for subjective technical analysis using both
Volume and Price.

All methodologies need fancy names for marketing purposes

Can’t be proven it works. Can’t be proven it doesn’t work, simply because
it can’t be formulated to provided back tested results, which makes it
ideal for marketing purposes.

Experience traders like yourself and others will be able to use it with success,
simply because they have the experience & time with the markets to make it work,
or more importantly apply VSA within a number games.

Inexperienced traders will struggle because there’s no A,B & C, so
educators like yourself need to constantly show them how it works. Like E.W.
Others will simply charge $thousands to the gullible

Chicken or the egg argument….

VSA should be used in conjunction with proven patterns that provide a reliable
edge, ie breakout of ranges, support & resistance.

VSA on it’s own might work or might not. who is to know.

In my opinion, know what the market is doing first and then apply VSA
as a secondary tool that helps increase the edge.

Not sure how VSA would work in Forex unless you are using real volume:- ticks per trade, not volume by time.

Not sure how you would apply VSA at the open when Volume is at its highest, unless you already have a level or pattern deemed as reliable.


In conclusion:- I haven’t changed my opinion on VSA, it’s not the secret
answer to successful trading.

Good trading tool if you have the patience to learn it.

I don't have the patience to be staring at the screen all day everyday waiting for low or high volume bars. I already know what I'm doing and what i'm going to do about before price and volume is applied:- Reliable patterns and numbers game

And I support my answer by what you have posted in the other thread:- glorifed
chart reading skills, which I'm a big believe in.

That's my last word on it.

 

[tech/a]

Frank

Firstly I respect your opinion.
You are one of the few who have found an edge.
I also enjoy intelligent discussion again
your one of the few who present it.So for the benifit of those interested.

Since I don’t know VSA, I’ll give my opinion by what you have posted on the
other thread regarding trading the SPI.

Firstly, nice trading from an experienced trader, when the pattern has a reliable
edge of working:- hitting resistance

Didnt see that (Resistance) but if it did then all the more reason for the analysis to be supportive---or not. Infact its at the high of today battling with resistance. No arguement Support and Resistance are powerful tools. But Support AND Resistance Fail
VSA allows you to know what will likley happen so you remain on the righ side.

VSA:- fancy name for subjective technical analysis using both
Volume and Price.

Fancy name yes --- subjective to those who dont know how to read it and in stone to those who do.

All methodologies need fancy names for marketing purposes

And reference.

Can’t be proven it works. Can’t be proven it doesn’t work, simply because
it can’t be formulated to provided back tested results, which makes it
ideal for marketing purposes.

Actually it can. Kris--(My in house rocket scientist) and I are in the process of doing just that.Its damned long and involved but some VERY interesting results. I wont be making the results public as its cost us a motza in software and time.If we evr release a book youll see it there.

Experience traders like yourself and others will be able to use it with success,
simply because they have the experience & time with the markets to make it work,
or more importantly apply VSA within a number games.

No arguement here most want INSTANT gratification and "SEE" what they want to see while biased wit what they expect the market to do---One of the hardest things to overcome in trading!

Inexperienced traders will struggle because there’s no A,B & C, so
educators like yourself need to constantly show them how it works. Like E.W.
Others will simply charge $thousands to the gullible

Again very true. Take Tradeguider and VSA. What they want is the software to show an arrow to take a trade then another to exit. Infact someone asked just that with my trade yesterday. The analysis is SOUND the application in software as you know is via an algorithm (Something we are dealing with--in testing) so it regularly breaks down as its based on a set of conditions which may alter slightly and still remain true---yet the software will not recognise a failure or a continuation as the price and volume falls outside of the conditions of the algorithm.

This knowledge which comes with experience --- is the DIFFERENCE between success and faiure---(I mean the ability to recognise when a Price /Pattern and or Volume and understand what its saying---even more important how to practically apply it.)

Chicken or the egg argument….

VSA should be used in conjunction with proven patterns that provide a reliable
edge, ie breakout of ranges, support & resistance.

Agree very powerful when combined.

VSA on it’s own might work or might not. who is to know.

It does I do it all the time---bit lazy!

In my opinion, know what the market is doing first and then apply VSA
as a secondary tool that helps increase the edge

.

Absolutely.

Not sure how VSA would work in Forex unless you are using real volume:- ticks per trade, not volume by time.

Not sure how you would apply VSA at the open when Volume is at its highest, unless you already have a level or pattern deemed as reliable.

Ive had a look but havent been able to see anything obviuos on the + side.
timeframes however are important --far far too much to discuss here and besides its a work in progress. Works brilliantly on INDEXES.

In conclusion:- I haven’t changed my opinion on VSA, it’s not the secret
answer to successful trading

.

It is to me!

Good trading tool if you have the patience to learn it.

I don't have the patience to be staring at the screen all day everyday waiting for low or high volume bars. I already know what I'm doing and what i'm going to do about before price and volume is applied:- Reliable patterns and numbers game

Think Ive proven you dont have to be at the screen all day. Would drive me mad!
Most of my trades last 15 min to 2 hrs. If its 2 hrs then Im celerbrating! I tend to trade then go away.

And I support my answer by what you have posted in the other thread:- glorifed
chart reading skills, which I'm a big believe in.

That's my last word on it.

Dont think they are glorified
They are simply skills EVERY experienced trader SHOULD know inside out.
Worth a fortune and you can step up to ANY chart and trade it IMMEDIATELY


Nice to swap blows again Frank!

 

[craft]

Interesting discussion.

Seems to me the secret is not in the answers but in the questions that need to be addressed.

How do I observe the market?

What are MY expectations based on those observations?

What will be MY reactions as MY expectations are proven or disproven?

Understanding MY observation-expectation-reaction patters, what is MY plan to expose myself to risk when I am more likely to win more than I loose? (the elusive positive expectancy edge)

I Invest based on fundamentals yet I think I have much in common with traders because I need to address the same core questions as they do. The answers are obviously different but unless we are religious about OUR version of the answers, that shouldn’t divide us.

 

[Mistagear]

Howdy,

In the past, on a number of occasions, I have made serious attempts, sometimes unsuccessfully, to start discussions on different trading subjects including the Wyckoff Methods.
On this particular occasion I was only having a light hearted dig at myself and my beliefs in trading more than anything else, not expecting any deep and meaningful discussion to emerge. Certainly did not expect to provoke angry responses from one heavy hitter (for whatever reason), and some excellent content in defence from another equally qualified hitter.
Thank you both for taking time to explain your relative positions, especially Tech for expanding knowledge on the subject.
To Frank, am sorry for you that you feel as opposed and closed to this method of trading. I have found it the most rewarding and logical of anything I have traded in over 10yrs of trading for a living.
I dont use any specialised software to identify entry and exit set-ups, have only read a couple of online publications on Wyckoff, preferring to develop my understanding on my own from the basic concept.
Do use money management position sizing in conjunction with Wyckoff. I do not use any indicators, do make use of support/resistance and have been nicknamed as a "price analyst" by friends because my primary inputs are price and volume, cause and affect, effort and result.
Trade Futures in 1min to 1hr increments and equities from 5mins to 5days. My Wyckoff methods work on all timeframes but are particularly pleasant when used on Volume based charts.
If someone finds benefit or logic in Wyckoff, thats great, if not then thats fine also, I'm not trying to convert anyone, purely sharing my experiences if you are interested.

Cheers, M

PS. Have listened to a couple of Tradeguider webinars, personally I do see their desire to market a product but dont think they are particularly interested in having people understand the underlying Wyckoff concept.

 

[tech/a]

Mistagear

Exactly as I have found it and how I approach it. VSA
Never thought I'd read it from anyone on forums!

More suprising to me than the Market--- you understand.

 

[pavilion103]

Howdy,

In the past, on a number of occasions, I have made serious attempts, sometimes unsuccessfully, to start discussions on different trading subjects including the Wyckoff Methods.
On this particular occasion I was only having a light hearted dig at myself and my beliefs in trading more than anything else, not expecting any deep and meaningful discussion to emerge. Certainly did not expect to provoke angry responses from one heavy hitter (for whatever reason), and some excellent content in defence from another equally qualified hitter.
Thank you both for taking time to explain your relative positions, especially Tech for expanding knowledge on the subject.
To Frank, am sorry for you that you feel as opposed and closed to this method of trading. I have found it the most rewarding and logical of anything I have traded in over 10yrs of trading for a living.
I dont use any specialised software to identify entry and exit set-ups, have only read a couple of online publications on Wyckoff, preferring to develop my understanding on my own from the basic concept.
Do use money management position sizing in conjunction with Wyckoff. I do not use any indicators, do make use of support/resistance and have been nicknamed as a "price analyst" by friends because my primary inputs are price and volume, cause and affect, effort and result.
Trade Futures in 1min to 1hr increments and equities from 5mins to 5days. My Wyckoff methods work on all timeframes but are particularly pleasant when used on Volume based charts.
If someone finds benefit or logic in Wyckoff, thats great, if not then thats fine also, I'm not trying to convert anyone, purely sharing my experiences if you are interested.

Cheers, M

PS. Have listened to a couple of Tradeguider webinars, personally I do see their desire to market a product but dont think they are particularly interested in having people understand the underlying Wyckoff concept.

Hey mate, what are some of the best Wyckoff publications that you have read? I've read "How I Trade and Invest in Stocks and Bonds", but wondering if any stand out, or if I can't go too wrong by reading through as much of his material as possible?

 

[Mistagear]

Hey mate, what are some of the best Wyckoff publications that you have read? I've read "How I Trade and Invest in Stocks and Bonds", but wondering if any stand out, or if I can't go too wrong by reading through as much of his material as possible?

Hi Pav,

Just looked on an old drive to recall what I had read. Within these Pdf publications I found sufficient material develop an understanding of Wyckoff's methods.

Wyckoff Method of Tape Reading Doc
Wyckoff Laws and Tests Doc
Wyckoff Wave Doc.

The gem is within the basic.

If you Google the title's am sure the info will still be available.

Cheers, M

 

[pavilion103]

How important is it to know figure charts? Going through the course "Trading and Investing in Stock" there is a fair bit on this.

Does anyone use this in conjunction with their regular charts or is there less need today when updating regular charts isn't time intensive?

 

[tech/a]

How important is it to know figure charts? Going through the course "Trading and Investing in Stock" there is a fair bit on this.

Does anyone use this in conjunction with their regular charts or is there less need today when updating regular charts isn't time intensive?

Don't use P&F at all.

 

[pavilion103]

I've now finished reading "The Richard D. Wyckoff Method of Trading and Investing in Stocks."

It seems like it would be beneficial for me to read through this course at least 4-5 times before even looking at anything else.
He says that the methods are complete and it is not wise to mix it with other methods.

He is very much against using other technical patterns such as "triangles, wedges etc..." and a lot of the stuff that the average person would use in the markets without knowing why they use them.

I feel that there is more useful information in this one course than almost everything else I've read combined (about 20 books). I've learnt a lot of the previous 9 months since I have been studying the markets but this resonates with me the most.

I'm very excited to go into more depth and thoroughly review this method many many times until my understanding is good enough to trade it.

My mind is not closed to anything else but I haven't found anything as yet which appeals to me as much as this does.

 

[tech/a]

I've now finished reading "The Richard D. Wyckoff Method of Trading and Investing in Stocks."

It seems like it would be beneficial for me to read through this course at least 4-5 times before even looking at anything else.
He says that the methods are complete and it is not wise to mix it with other methods.

He is very much against using other technical patterns such as "triangles, wedges etc..." and a lot of the stuff that the average person would use in the markets without knowing why they use them.

I feel that there is more useful information in this one course than almost everything else I've read combined (about 20 books). I've learnt a lot of the previous 9 months since I have been studying the markets but this resonates with me the most.

I'm very excited to go into more depth and thoroughly review this method many many times until my understanding is good enough to trade it.

My mind is not closed to anything else but I haven't found anything as yet which appeals to me as much as this does.

Just a word of warning from someone who has used VSA for a few years.
While it is an amazing tool it will take quite sometime before you ACTUALLY get your head around it.If you cant associate with the reading of volume being almost the exact opposite of what is commonly accepted then you haven't yet grasped it.

VSA spits out signal after signal. These signals are POSSIBILITIES ONLY
If you take a signal to be gospel in its own right you'll be bitterly disappointed with your trading and VSA.

Some hints.
(1) On trends look for signals with the trend.
(2) On reversals look at where a likely reversal will occur---Support/Resistance and watch for signals supporting either the REVERSAL VIEW or the CONTINUATION VIEW
(3) If trading futures swing trading is excellent when you understand reversals.
(4) Most setups are multi bar.
(5) Much of the benefit of VSA analysis is NOT TAUGHT. You'll see what I mean as you watch 1000s of hrs of charts!
(6) Low volume in the right place at the right time will tell you more than the high volume PRECEDING it! Thats not in any book!
(7) Few can read VSA properly and even fewer can apply it. Be VERY WARY of home made code its often way wide of the mark and coded from a background of little knowledge---the OBVIOUS ISN'T OBVIOUS.---if you think it is then you haven't GOT IT!

Its worth the effort.

 

[Wysiwyg]

My mind is not closed to anything else but I haven't found anything as yet which appeals to me as much as this does.

Wondering if you know why the Wyckoff method appeals?

 

[pavilion103]

Wondering if you know why the Wyckoff method appeals?

Wyckoff seems to be able to read the behaviour of the market well.
His methods are helping me understand WHY the market behaves as it does. A lot of other things I have read don't tend to give this insight. The fact that much of it is contrary to popular beliefs also appeals to me because I know the majority of people are losing money.
Supply and Demand are the factors driving the market and I feel that the better understanding I can get of this, the closer I am to understanding why the market behaves as it does.