2014 Victorian Election

[explod]

If anyone's interested -- Build the Link.

http://buildthelink.com.au/#anchor2

As i have pointed out this project will only further choke existing through road's.

If it continued through Footscray and opened up an extra crossing of the Maribyrnong River to relieve the overburdened Westgate and Monash Freeways then it could have some merit.

Unfortunately politician's of both major parties no longer think beyond thier own self interest. And big business behind such things as freeways, feed on it.

And because of the dodgy closed shop manner of the contracts settled by the former Liberal Government the cancellation of the project will cost us no where near three billion.

And the way the economy is starting to go under the Libs in Canberra we will no longer be able to afford 8 billion anyway.

As was said in The Castle, "tell him he's dreaming"

 

[Smurf1976]

And big business behind such things as freeways, feed on it.

The real question is why have we allowed critical public infrastructure, and it's hard to think of something more fundamental than roads, to be in the hands of big business in the first place?

What's wrong with the idea of state governments borrowing money to build such things, then repaying the loans over the next 30 or so years?

 

[Knobby22]

The real question is why have we allowed critical public infrastructure, and it's hard to think of something more fundamental than roads, to be in the hands of big business in the first place?

What's wrong with the idea of state governments borrowing money to build such things, then repaying the loans over the next 30 or so years?

Especially as they can borrow long term at never to be offered again interest rates.

 

[Tink]

Well summed up by Michael O'Brien.

"A responsible government – a government that actually values our state's reputation and good name – doesn't rip up contracts."
These words describe an obvious proposition, one long observed by both sides of Victorian politics. Until now.

There are good reasons that governments are bound by the contracts of their predecessors. The Bracks and Brumby governments signed contracts that cost, and continue to cost, Victoria dearly. Labor's white-elephant desalination plant, dysfunctional myki ticketing system and botched pokies licence auction were all opposed by the Coalition in opposition. Despite this, the Coalition did not rip these contracts up on taking office in 2010. Why not? Because oppositions do not determine contracts, governments do.

A contract with the state does not dissolve on a change of government, no matter how inconvenient it may be for an incoming government. Federal Labor's treasury spokesman, Chris Bowen, told the National Press Club last September, "Labor honours contracts entered into by previous governments. Even if we don't like them, for reasons of sovereign risk, Labor honours contracts in office signed by previous governments." Sadly for Victoria, Daniel Andrews didn't get the memo.

The East West Link was enthusiastically endorsed by the Brumby government, after a needs assessment by Sir Rod Eddington. Supporters of the project included Bill Shorten, Julia Gillard and Victoria's trade unions. In the May 2013 budget – more than 18 months before the state election – the Coalition government announced that the project would proceed. A competitive tender ensued, involving domestic and international firms, over more than a year of consultation, preparation and planning.

Standing by a contract is essential for any responsible party, not least the State of Victoria. The rule of law applies to everyone, including governments.

And the quote at the start of this article about the importance of honouring contracts? It was Labor leader Daniel Andrews on ABC radio on August 13 last year – before he decided that Victoria's reputation and good name didn't matter.

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/vi...-east-west-link-contract-20150301-13rtip.html

 

[Tink]

And it continues.....

Tony Abbott warns Daniel Andrews about putting Australia at risk.

Premier Daniel Andrews hasn’t ruled out introducing laws to avoid paying compensation.

Global investors are being warned about doing business in Victoria amid speculation that the State Government could legislate its way out of the East West Link contract.

An article published on Friday in global business magazine Infrastructure Investor warns readers that retrospective laws being considered by the Andrews Government would “send shivers down the spines of infrastructure investors” around the world.

The article, “Can Australia be taken at its word?”, says the nation could lose its crown as the “world’s most attractive infrastructure destination”.
Premier Daniel Andrews hasn’t ruled out introducing legislation to avoid paying compensation, despite criticism that such a move would damage the state’s reputation.

The magazine compares Victoria to Spain, which once led the global solar power market but was effectively black-listed in 2008 after it changed agreed feed-in tariff subsidies.

Spain has “seven years later, just started to win back the confidence of the international investment community”, the article says. “But that’s a long time to be effectively removed from the list of sensible investment locations.”

Federal Assistant Minister for Infrastructure Jamie Briggs said a state had never failed to honour a contract to build major transport infrastructure.

“Major infrastructure companies and investors across the globe are rightly concerned by the Victorian Labor Government’s reckless actions, which are damaging Australia’s reputation as a trusted place t do business,” Mr Briggs said.

 

[SirRumpole]

“Major infrastructure companies and investors across the globe are rightly concerned by the Victorian Labor Government’s reckless actions, which are damaging Australia’s reputation as a trusted place to do business,” Mr Briggs said.

This is just rubbish.

Contractors knew that the Labor Party were not going to proceed with the project if they came to power, yet they signed the contracts anyway. They took the risk and the taxpayers should not have to pay up because the Mates in the Liberal Party threw public dollars in their direction.

The contractors should have waited untill after the election before signing.

Did anyone in the Liberal party benefit from these contracts ? Board positions perhaps ? Financial contributions ?

 

[Ijustnewit]

This is just rubbish.

Contractors knew that the Labor Party were not going to proceed with the project if they came to power, yet they signed the contracts anyway. They took the risk and the taxpayers should not have to pay up because the Mates in the Liberal Party threw public dollars in their direction.

The contractors should have waited untill after the election before signing.

Did anyone in the Liberal party benefit from these contracts ? Board positions perhaps ? Financial contributions ?

So you think major businesses and contractors should have waited for and election ? You also think that these major businesses and contractors should legally not have a leg to stand on when they signed up because the Liberals where in power and Labor might win an election ? Imagine if we all sat around waiting for the next election result waiting and wondering wether to proceed with major projects.
Now that's what I call " just rubbish".
As others have pointed out " A contract does not dissolve on a change of Government ".

 

[SirRumpole]

So you think major businesses and contractors should have waited for and election ?

Yes, or be prepared to bear the risk of having the contracts cancelled. They tried to get in before the government changed and got burnt. That's their problem.

As they haven't delivered anything (apart from a bid), the taxpayers don't owe them anything.

 

[noco]

This is just rubbish.

Contractors knew that the Labor Party were not going to proceed with the project if they came to power, yet they signed the contracts anyway. They took the risk and the taxpayers should not have to pay up because the Mates in the Liberal Party threw public dollars in their direction.

The contractors should have waited untill after the election before signing.

Did anyone in the Liberal party benefit from these contracts ? Board positions perhaps ? Financial contributions ?

So the planning started 2 months before the election......What rubbish.....The feasibility study, the surveys and the planning would have started at least 2 years ago.

Even Juliar Gillard and Bill Shorten agreed upon the project.....Our comrade Billy is very quiet about it all.

Andrews should swallow his pride and get on with the project as planned and withhold Australia's reputation...The Victorian people want it and so do many Labor MP's.

 

[SirRumpole]

..The Victorian people want it and so do many Labor MP's.

The Victorian people voted against it remember ?

 

[noco]

The Victorian people voted against it remember ?

But Gillard and Shorten thought it was a good idea.....The Victorian people voted against it because they believed the BS Andrews threw at them.....But still and all it does not distract from the fact that the contract was signed and it is protocol for incoming governments to honor those commitments made by the previous government.

 

[explod]

But Gillard and Shorten thought it was a good idea.....The Victorian people voted against it because they believed the BS Andrews threw at them.....But still and all it does not distract from the fact that the contract was signed and it is protocol for incoming governments to honor those commitments made by the previous government.

Did you bother to look at a road map of Melbourne and to look at what was proposed and see what a shemozzle the whole project would be.

The past supporters, left right, labour libs were wrong and the same people are not in power today. Move on.

Contracts, who cares for reputations to the big side who probably contribute little if any revenue back to our community in Australia anyway.

It is time to rip up the past and move to the desires and needs of the community now, today with substance and content.

Did you notice the huge potential in linking the outer "western ring road" with "east link" the improvement in relieving inner metro traffic is a no brainer.

 

[noco]

Did you bother to look at a road map of Melbourne and to look at what was proposed and see what a shemozzle the whole project would be.

The past supporters, left right, labour libs were wrong and the same people are not in power today. Move on.

Contracts, who cares for reputations to the big side who probably contribute little if any revenue back to our community in Australia anyway.

It is time to rip up the past and move to the desires and needs of the community now, today with substance and content.

Did you notice the huge potential in linking the outer "western ring road" with "east link" the improvement in relieving inner metro traffic is a no brainer.

Actually I really could not care less what happens in Victoria......They can stew in their own juice ...I live in Gods country with GG.

There was this American guy who went around the world doing research and commentary on old phones and churches.
He found this old church in Florida with a golden phone and a sign above "All calls to heaven $10,000, speak to God direct".
He went to good old England and found another old church with a golden phone on the wall with the sign," All calls to heaven 5000 pounds, speak to God direct".
He came to Townsville and found this old church with a sign about the golden phone, all calls to heaven 50 cents, speak to God direct".
The American guy said the priest, "I have been all around the world and I have come across these golden phones, $10,000 Florida, 5000 pounds in England, why is it only 50 cents in Townsville?.....The priest told the American, it is a local call because you are already in heaven.
Ah yeah, you gotta have a laugh explod, it makes the world go around.

 

[sptrawler]

As i have pointed out this project will only further choke existing through road's.

If it continued through Footscray and opened up an extra crossing of the Maribyrnong River to relieve the overburdened Westgate and Monash Freeways then it could have some merit.

Unfortunately politician's of both major parties no longer think beyond thier own self interest. And big business behind such things as freeways, feed on it.

And because of the dodgy closed shop manner of the contracts settled by the former Liberal Government the cancellation of the project will cost us no where near three billion.

And the way the economy is starting to go under the Libs in Canberra we will no longer be able to afford 8 billion anyway.

As was said in The Castle, "tell him he's dreaming"

I know nothing about the tunnel or the roads, but your second sentence sounded as though there was merit, if the process was continued.

It seems to me that most major cities world wide have to either go overhead or underground as congestion becomes more and more of a problem.
To just bury your head in the ground and say we will manage is dumb.

We have a similar problem in Perth, the chosen path for the Perth - Mandurah rail line was through the outer suburbs. The incoming goverment overturned it and went down the freeway.

Now the freeway is choked and it is obvious the rail line will have to be buried or raised, it will cost billions and cause massive traffic problems.

However at the time everyone was overjoyed, in the fact the rail line was not going through outer suburbs, as it would be more scenic and save 12 minutes.

It will cost W.A a lot of money to overcome that political decision.IMO

 

[Tink]

Ijustnewit, you are spot on, and as you know, you have seen what a Labor/Greens Govt does to a state.
Economic vandals, exactly.
Nothing will get done in Victoria, money is gone.

I wondered too, noco, why Bill Shorten is so quiet.

In four months, Daniel Andrews has already bled this state in Court cases, from the pokies that he created, to now the East West Link, that he created, back flipping from his original thought, to siding with the Greens for power.

He has lied that the contracts weren't valid, and that taxpayers would not be paying.
He is trying to legislate himself out of it which only puts our state in jeopardy.

Daniel Andrews is now in a bind in his own making, and whichever way he turns, Victoria loses.

Rumpole, this was ongoing for the last few years, from the Brumby Govt that back flipped on public transport in 2008.
If you read the Age article, that pretty much sums it up.
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/vi...-east-west-link-contract-20150301-13rtip.html

Of course you don't care about business, explod, we saw what the Greens did to Tasmania.

As I said at the start, we need both road and rail.
Melbourne's population is soaring and yet again, we end up with no infrastructure.

Daniel Andrews has just wasted all this taxpayer money, with nothing to show, for a road that we needed.

 

[moXJO]

Victoria is a well known state to avoid for construction while under labor unless you are union friendly.

 

[drsmith]

I know nothing about the tunnel or the roads, but your second sentence sounded as though there was merit, if the process was continued.

It seems to me that most major cities world wide have to either go overhead or underground as congestion becomes more and more of a problem.
To just bury your head in the ground and say we will manage is dumb.

We have a similar problem in Perth, the chosen path for the Perth - Mandurah rail line was through the outer suburbs. The incoming goverment overturned it and went down the freeway.

Now the freeway is choked and it is obvious the rail line will have to be buried or raised, it will cost billions and cause massive traffic problems.

However at the time everyone was overjoyed, in the fact the rail line was not going through outer suburbs, as it would be more scenic and save 12 minutes.

It will cost W.A a lot of money to overcome that political decision.IMO

Should it become necessary an additional road corridor would be built, most likely as a tunnel. This would obviously still be very expensive and I'd suggest would require a component of private funding. In other words, a toll road.

In the meantime, there are solutions to increase capacity within the Kwinana corridor. An incremental improvement may be achieved with ramp metering. An additional traffic lane can also be added in each direction essentially by using the space reserved for stopping lane and conversion into a managed motorway (much as has been done with the tunnel and planned for Leach south of Tonkin at ultimate design). This though I imagine would result in a reduced speed limit of 80 km/h along any actively managed section. Significant upgrades to the arterial road network through the eastern suburbs (Gateway WA and Northlink WA) will also provide an alternative north/south route and hence the potential for further incremental relief on the Mitchell/Kwinana corridor.

A question with the rail route is how many patrons are taking the train instead of driving because of that 12-minute saving and more direct access to the heart of the CBD via the stations under William street ?

A second longer term question is that of capacity on the Armadale line if it had been used as part of the Mandurah route and indeed the main Perth station itself when one considers the upcoming expansion of the urban rail network to the Airport/Forrestfield and in the longer term to Ellenbrook.

The big transport sin of Labor's time in office in WA in my view was their attitude to Roe8 and the FEB. The trench being planned adjacent to High Street as part of Perth Freight Link could have just as easily used the FEB corridor.

 

[sptrawler]

Should it become necessary an additional road corridor would be built, most likely as a tunnel. This would obviously still be very expensive and I'd suggest would require a component of private funding. In other words, a toll road.

In the meantime, there are solutions to increase capacity within the Kwinana corridor. An incremental improvement may be achieved with ramp metering. An additional traffic lane can also be added in each direction essentially by using the space reserved for stopping lane and conversion into a managed motorway (much as has been done with the tunnel and planned for Leach south of Tonkin at ultimate design). This though I imagine would result in a reduced speed limit of 80 km/h along any actively managed section. Significant upgrades to the arterial road network through the eastern suburbs (Gateway WA and Northlink WA) will also provide an alternative north/south route and hence the potential for further incremental relief on the Mitchell/Kwinana corridor.

A question with the rail route is how many patrons are taking the train instead of driving because of that 12-minute saving and more direct access to the heart of the CBD via the stations under William street ?

A second longer term question is that of capacity on the Armadale line if it had been used as part of the Mandurah route and indeed the main Perth station itself when one considers the upcoming expansion of the urban rail network to the Airport/Forrestfield and in the longer term to Ellenbrook.

The big transport sin of Labor's time in office in WA in my view was their attitude to Roe8 and the FEB. The trench being planned adjacent to High Street as part of Perth Freight Link could have just as easily used the FEB corridor.

The Roe highway/ Kwinana freeway intersection is a nightmare.
Also when the decision was made to use the freeway for the train, it should have involved possible trench tunneling to facilitate it.
As for widening the freeway I would have thought it is just about at its limit through Bullcreek, Murdoch, due to overpass size constraints

 

[drsmith]

The Roe highway/ Kwinana freeway intersection is a nightmare.
Also when the decision was made to use the freeway for the train, it should have involved possible trench tunneling to facilitate it.
As for widening the freeway I would have thought it is just about at its limit through Bullcreek, Murdoch, due to overpass size constraints

You can widen that section of the freeway as much as you could widen the GFF tunnel (none), but like the GFF tunnel, the emergency stopping lane can be used as an additional traffic lane under the managed motorway scenario above.

The present traffic problems with the existing Roe highway/Kwinana freeway intersection relate to capacity constraints to the south. That's being addressed southbound with the Kwinana carriageway widening under way. Northbound will also have to be done at some point.

The current Roe highway/Kwinana freeway intersection is certainly a nightmare is in terms of design options to extend Roe Highway further west. You can see from the following link the number of bridges that have to be built for Roe8 and utilise the existing bridge. That's the northermost of the 3 bridges shown going over the Kwinana Freeway.

http://www.southmetroconnect.com.au/wp-content/uploads/60100953-215J-CI-DRG-0027-RevB.pdf

 

[explod]

The discussion/current focus on roadways has a great deal of merit.

Not time myself at the moment but a specific thread should be fired up. The posts of the last few weeks could all be lifted to start it off.

Because in regard to the election in Victoria last year we are way off topic in my view.

Anyone, or Joe perhaps?