Financial Independence (Home Ownership, Super, Long Retirement) not possible for wage earners: What do we need and how do we get it?

[Value Hunter]

Very salient story qldfrog. IMV goes to the heart of investing options generally offered to the every day punters.

In the 70's,80's, and 90's in fact all my life I have watched hosts of investment vehicles sold to millions of people as means to watch their money grow simply and painlessly. They were 10 year insurance investment schemes. Education funds for your children. Private Super schemes run by big name companies. I became very interested when I began investigating the charges and outcomes Insurance bonds and Super schemes my friends had been sold. It was clear the only people making big bucks were the sellers not the buyers

The "Financial Planning Industry" was developed in the 1980's as an "independent" advisory organisation ostensibly to help people make good decisions about where to invest their money and "make it grow". Again I saw scores- hundreds of investment opportunities sold to friends and family members as well as the broader community. Pine plantations, Jojoba Farms, Ostrich Investments, Macadamia Plantations. The list is endless. These were the agricultural side. Then there were the multitude of property investment groups promising huge returns on gilt edged mortgages. Scores of investment funds each promising a carefully curated, nimble approach to share-market investment that promised high returns .

It is all BS. Any cursory reading of ASF will throw up scores of examples of how unfit for purpose these financial vehicles have been. They certainly make money. But the money stops with dodgy investment projects sold by "independent" advisors all gaining commissions on the sales. The biggest commissions are offered y the biggest crooks.

VC and others talk of the value of compounding interest and long term investments. I have particular respect for VC and others who analyse businesses with clear eyes and forensic skill and identify quality opportunities. So certainly there are opportunities to invest wisely. But in my experience the success rate is far smaller than we would like to believe.

Share investment promotors endlessly recite the mantra of continualy increasing sharemarket indices to show that investment in shares will almost inevitably create wealth. I believe this is gross misrepresentaion of reality.

Stock Indices only measure successful stocks. All the failures get dropped off the index. Their losses are lost in history. Their place is taken by the next highrising stock. Of course the fact that a share price is $2-5-10-100 is absolutely no indication of actual profitability or long term success. But while that share is selling for $100 it is making the index look good. And a whole industry of buyers and sellers and promotors and grifters take their cut. And then it collapses and folds generally taking the "average" investors money to the grave. The "smart"money of course left years ago to jump onto the next big thing/con.

The smart money starts the company. Gives itself a 50% stake. Promotes and sells the idea. Builds an army of salespeople to sell the vision. It doesn't dirty itself with making the vision actually work or be profitable. The profit is in the sizzle not the steak.

I broadly think what you are saying is true but now is different to the 1980s and 1990s. There are now so many low cost ETFs available that will reliably give you almost the same return as the actual index. Whereas before those options were not available. So now people can genuinely approximate the market return rather than getting robbed with high fees by under-performing fund managers.

 

[Dona Ferentes]

Can't you just jam $10k in a fund and let it roll for each of them now. Wasn't that the point of compounding interest.

I did that with my daughter. or similar. She worked in restaurants from 15 until uni graduation. She'd bring home superann statements of $25 or so, and every year I put in $1000 as a contribution. At the time it was matched, 1500 by the govt, then 1000 . Now the co-contribution is 500, I think.

By the time she started full time work, the super was 50k. . Now 300+k, and she's under 40.

Don't anyone moan, the information was out there. The scheme was to boost balances, but awareness and recognition of the benefits is only picked up by some.

Best thing, apart from a likely good retirement, has been the lightbulb go on every time an annual statement arrived.

 

[Dona Ferentes]

Very salient story qldfrog. IMV goes to the heart of investing options generally offered to the every day punters.

In the 70's,80's, and 90's in fact all my life I have watched hosts of investment vehicles sold to millions of people as means to watch their money grow simply and painlessly. They were 10 year insurance investment schemes. Education funds for your children. Private Super schemes run by big name companies. I became very interested when I began investigating the charges and outcomes Insurance bonds and Super schemes my friends had been sold. It was clear the only people making big bucks were the sellers not the buyers

The "Financial Planning Industry" was developed in the 1980's as an "independent" advisory organisation ostensibly to help people make good decisions about where to invest their money and "make it grow". Again I saw scores- hundreds of investment opportunities sold to friends and family members as well as the broader community. Pine plantations, Jojoba Farms, Ostrich Investments, Macadamia Plantations. The list is endless. These were the agricultural side. Then there were the multitude of property investment groups promising huge returns on gilt edged mortgages. Scores of investment funds each promising a carefully curated, nimble approach to share-market investment that promised high returns .

It is all BS. Any cursory reading of ASF will throw up scores of examples of how unfit for purpose these financial vehicles have been. They certainly make money. But the money stops with dodgy investment projects sold by "independent" advisors all gaining commissions on the sales. The biggest commissions are offered y the biggest crooks.

VC and others talk of the value of compounding interest and long term investments. I have particular respect for VC and others who analyse businesses with clear eyes and forensic skill and identify quality opportunities. So certainly there are opportunities to invest wisely. But in my experience the success rate is far smaller than we would like to believe.

Share investment promotors endlessly recite the mantra of continualy increasing sharemarket indices to show that investment in shares will almost inevitably create wealth. I believe this is gross misrepresentaion of reality.

Stock Indices only measure successful stocks. All the failures get dropped off the index. Their losses are lost in history. Their place is taken by the next highrising stock. Of course the fact that a share price is $2-5-10-100 is absolutely no indication of actual profitability or long term success. But while that share is selling for $100 it is making the index look good. And a whole industry of buyers and sellers and promotors and grifters take their cut. And then it collapses and folds generally taking the "average" investors money to the grave. The "smart"money of course left years ago to jump onto the next big thing/con.

The smart money starts the company. Gives itself a 50% stake. Promotes and sells the idea. Builds an army of salespeople to sell the vision. It doesn't dirty itself with making the vision actually work or be profitable. The profit is in the sizzle not the steak.

same old bs narrative .. whilst the core story is right, most of those 'advisors' were accountants, they were unlicensed to give planning advice and were trying to spice up a tax return for one year to the client's detriment for years to come.

The planning and advice side came out of the insurance industry, where trailing commissions were the norm. But clients accepted it, / disclosure was minimal, due to a dislike of paying a fee for service.

 

[Value Collector]

Very salient story qldfrog. IMV goes to the heart of investing options generally offered to the every day punters.

In the 70's,80's, and 90's in fact all my life I have watched hosts of investment vehicles sold to millions of people as means to watch their money grow simply and painlessly. They were 10 year insurance investment schemes. Education funds for your children. Private Super schemes run by big name companies. I became very interested when I began investigating the charges and outcomes Insurance bonds and Super schemes my friends had been sold. It was clear the only people making big bucks were the sellers not the buyers

The "Financial Planning Industry" was developed in the 1980's as an "independent" advisory organisation ostensibly to help people make good decisions about where to invest their money and "make it grow". Again I saw scores- hundreds of investment opportunities sold to friends and family members as well as the broader community. Pine plantations, Jojoba Farms, Ostrich Investments, Macadamia Plantations. The list is endless. These were the agricultural side. Then there were the multitude of property investment groups promising huge returns on gilt edged mortgages. Scores of investment funds each promising a carefully curated, nimble approach to share-market investment that promised high returns .

It is all BS. Any cursory reading of ASF will throw up scores of examples of how unfit for purpose these financial vehicles have been. They certainly make money. But the money stops with dodgy investment projects sold by "independent" advisors all gaining commissions on the sales. The biggest commissions are offered y the biggest crooks.

VC and others talk of the value of compounding interest and long term investments. I have particular respect for VC and others who analyse businesses with clear eyes and forensic skill and identify quality opportunities. So certainly there are opportunities to invest wisely. But in my experience the success rate is far smaller than we would like to believe.

Share investment promotors endlessly recite the mantra of continualy increasing sharemarket indices to show that investment in shares will almost inevitably create wealth. I believe this is gross misrepresentaion of reality.

Stock Indices only measure successful stocks. All the failures get dropped off the index. Their losses are lost in history. Their place is taken by the next highrising stock. Of course the fact that a share price is $2-5-10-100 is absolutely no indication of actual profitability or long term success. But while that share is selling for $100 it is making the index look good. And a whole industry of buyers and sellers and promotors and grifters take their cut. And then it collapses and folds generally taking the "average" investors money to the grave. The "smart"money of course left years ago to jump onto the next big thing/con.

The smart money starts the company. Gives itself a 50% stake. Promotes and sells the idea. Builds an army of salespeople to sell the vision. It doesn't dirty itself with making the vision actually work or be profitable. The profit is in the sizzle not the steak.

Very salient story qldfrog. IMV goes to the heart of investing options generally offered to the every day punters.

In the 70's,80's, and 90's in fact all my life I have watched hosts of investment vehicles sold to millions of people as means to watch their money grow simply and painlessly. They were 10 year insurance investment schemes. Education funds for your children. Private Super schemes run by big name companies. I became very interested when I began investigating the charges and outcomes Insurance bonds and Super schemes my friends had been sold. It was clear the only people making big bucks were the sellers not the buyers

The "Financial Planning Industry" was developed in the 1980's as an "independent" advisory organisation ostensibly to help people make good decisions about where to invest their money and "make it grow". Again I saw scores- hundreds of investment opportunities sold to friends and family members as well as the broader community. Pine plantations, Jojoba Farms, Ostrich Investments, Macadamia Plantations. The list is endless. These were the agricultural side. Then there were the multitude of property investment groups promising huge returns on gilt edged mortgages. Scores of investment funds each promising a carefully curated, nimble approach to share-market investment that promised high returns .

It is all BS. Any cursory reading of ASF will throw up scores of examples of how unfit for purpose these financial vehicles have been. They certainly make money. But the money stops with dodgy investment projects sold by "independent" advisors all gaining commissions on the sales. The biggest commissions are offered y the biggest crooks.

VC and others talk of the value of compounding interest and long term investments. I have particular respect for VC and others who analyse businesses with clear eyes and forensic skill and identify quality opportunities. So certainly there are opportunities to invest wisely. But in my experience the success rate is far smaller than we would like to believe.

Share investment promotors endlessly recite the mantra of continualy increasing sharemarket indices to show that investment in shares will almost inevitably create wealth. I believe this is gross misrepresentaion of reality.

Stock Indices only measure successful stocks. All the failures get dropped off the index. Their losses are lost in history. Their place is taken by the next highrising stock. Of course the fact that a share price is $2-5-10-100 is absolutely no indication of actual profitability or long term success. But while that share is selling for $100 it is making the index look good. And a whole industry of buyers and sellers and promotors and grifters take their cut. And then it collapses and folds generally taking the "average" investors money to the grave. The "smart"money of course left years ago to jump onto the next big thing/con.

The smart money starts the company. Gives itself a 50% stake. Promotes and sells the idea. Builds an army of salespeople to sell the vision. It doesn't dirty itself with making the vision actually work or be profitable. The profit is in the sizzle not the steak.

when it comes to companies in the index going going out of business, generally it doesn’t affect the model of the index, because the company will just leave the index and be replaced by one of a similar value.

So it’s a bit of a fallacy that the indexes don’t record the loses.

for example, some people will quote a list of companies that were is index’s and now aren’t, thinking that, that means the index isn’t accurate. But just as the index records a shares gain it also records its loses, and when that share is deleted and another added normally it’s at around the say price level and index values adjust for the difference.

So you can rely on the major index’s to give a very good indication of performanc.

 

[tech/a]

And I won't be here to find out.

Why are you not well?

 

[basilio]

same old bs narrative .. whilst the core story is right, most of those 'advisors' were accountants, they were unlicensed to give planning advice and were trying to spice up a tax return for one year to the client's detriment for years to come.

The planning and advice side came out of the insurance industry, where trailing commissions were the norm. But clients accepted it, / disclosure was minimal, due to a dislike of paying a fee for service.

Not sure what distinction you are making here Dona. Yes tax accountants were often a vehicle for promoting agriculture related projects in particular which had creative tax advantages. That also applied for making films and other creative ventures designed largely to generate tax deductions . Again there would have been commissions for getting clients to buy in.

The "licensed" Financial Planners operated on a broader spectrum. If they were tied to an insurance company (which almost all were) they would promote only their products , period.

There have been very few actually independent Financial Planners because, as you point out, people were prepared to accept the illusion of having a Financial Planner whereas they were just being serviced by a insurance agent under a fancy name .

 

[moXJO]

.
How would a 20 year old today achieve this financial independence ? The current parameters of life to consider are

This is a good question. However young people today have massive amounts of opportunities that we never had. One of them being the easy access to everyone in the world through various tech platforms.

Investing for me is just chasing %.
What's going to double my money or more. I feel like high returns are a lot more achievable to those that work on it.
Passive returns are still available but that probably needs to be expanded to automated websites/bots etc.


Sure we had cheap housing. But thank governments constant immigration, pushing for higher wages, local councils ineptitude for what we have now.
The returns are there for those willing to work at it. Just not in traditional spaces

 

[JohnDe]

Happy New Year everyone

2024 opens with many challenges for most.
Following the discussion on one of the housing threads I feel that there is
a great deal more that needs to be considered by everyone who chooses to live
in western society. Getting a job is generally the first consideration after we finish
our education at what ever level we wish to or are able to attain.

Our aims are to live comfortably.
Own a home, have a family , enjoy the best quality of life we can including all
many of the toys — then retire comfortably enjoying the fruits of our endeavour.

But from experience most don’t consider what they need for retirement
Forced or chosen.
Further often they under estimate what they will need particularly a couple.
So very very few will attain all. Statistically under 5% ( depending on your
opinion of what financial independence is particularly after 10 or so years
of retirement)

These are questions which need serious consideration
Not just pontification but answers —- better still a blueprint.

So how much do we need and how do we get there ?
With housing being unobtainable to many disposable retirement income
is nothing but an impossibility.
To some it will prove to be correct.
But to others it will be possible in fact I believe most —- with a well thought out
blueprint —- you can have it all but not without effort And thinking well out of
your square.

I have a blueprint which I’ll present including the why and how (Many know
I have a lot of property BUT the blueprint goes well beyond that.)

I encourage those here who are living or organising their blueprint to take part
in this thread. You wouldn’t have found your way to ASF unless you wanted to
invest in your financial future! So let’s help build the future we all want our selves
and our families to live.

Let’s make 2024 the start for some and the continuation for others to financial
freedom .

tech

An interesting and informative article.

Relax, you have time on your side. What’s more, you most certainly do not have to have $1m or any other number the “retirement calculators” come up with in terms of your expected needs in the years ahead.​

Rather you need to set your sails to optimise your plans for the coming decade. Here’s your ready made checklist​

So it turns out, to your surprise – and possibly to your horror – you will be reaching retirement age in about ten year’s time.
You have never really thought about it, you’ve never really done the numbers.

You thought it was miles away and now, well, it’s looming as a financial crossroads and you don’t know where to turn.

Relax, you have time on your side. What’s more, you most certainly do not have to have $1m or any other number the “retirement calculators” come up with in terms of your expected needs in the years ahead.

Rather you need to set your sails to optimise your plans for the coming decade. Here’s your ready made checklist

Unless you’re exceptionally organised you have probably not noticed how the Superannuation Guarantee (SG) has crept up in recent years.

Since July 2023 you have been paying 11 per cent of your salary into super. On the basis you’ve managed it so far with little real struggle, perhaps you could volunteer a little more – money which is ‘salary sacrificed’ will compound in the years ahead, bolstering your retirement savings.

The super tax concessions we have in our market remain very useful, as you can contribute up to $27,500 per annum before tax into super and this money will be taxed at just 15 per cent compared to whatever your income tax rate may be now.

Remember the number – $27,500 – is the total pre-tax contribution allowable. You must subtract whatever the SG was for your salary, and then the gap between this number and $27,500 is how much extra you can contribute per annum.

Go one further and make an after-tax contribution

If you really want to build up your super, you can still get a lot in to your fund post-tax. It may hurt to lose some of the money available to you, but once your post-tax contribution gets inside the super system it will work more effectively towards underpinning your retirement.

Remember, you can still have up to $1.9m in super before the earnings on your savings are hit with tax.

The annual post-tax cap is now at $110,000, and there is no one-off 15 per cent contribution tax attributed to this money, as you have already paid tax on it.

Keep pension access in mind

There is every chance you qualify for some pension payment even if you have a reasonable level of savings, as our system is tiered and the value of your home is not fully assessed when it comes to eligibility tests.

Put it this way, 62 per cent – a solid majority – of Australians have some form of pension access. On top of this, if you do qualify for the pension in any way, even for a tiny sum (let’s say $1 a fortnight) then you qualify for the Commonwealth Seniors Health Card (CSHC), which offers a range of discounts on health-related costs.

It is estimated more than 85 per cent of all senior Australians qualify for the CSHC.

The income threshold for the card has risen substantially in recent times: it is now $95,400 for singles and up to $152,640 for couples.

No wonder it’s available to almost everyone.

Consider downsizing

The popular federal home downsizer scheme is designed to make it more attractive for older Australians to leave the large family home and move to something a little more compact through the provision of a superannuation tax break.

In the past many people were not able to put money from the sale of the family home into super due to certain limits. This has changed and every person who sells their home over the age of 55 can make a one-off $300,000 tax free contribution to super which stands outside all existing super rules.

The deal is per person, so a couple could contribute $600,000.

In reality, the hard part of downsizing is the psychological and logistic toil of moving house – it might seem like a big deal to move house ten years before retirement, but by the time you actually reach retirement it might all just be too hard.

Asset allocation (if a fund manages your money)

If you are an active investor – even if your money is inside an industry or retail fund – then it will make a lot of sense to review your super.

At an elementary level this could simply mean comparing the performance of your fund against other funds to make sure you are not investing each year in a dud fund.

You could begin the process with YourSuper comparisons at www.mygov.au.

Then, if you wish to dig a little deeper, you can review whether the asset allocation of your fund is appropriate for your age – this should be available on your own fund’s website.

The textbooks would suggest your allocation (or distribution of the money) should be 60 per cent “growth” and 40 per cent “defensive” by the time of your retirement. This is a general rule, and it is often debated, but it remains a sound basis to work with a decade before retirement.

Asset allocation (if you do it yourself)

If you have a self-managed super fund then regardless of how well you might think you have managed your fund it might be time to sit down with an adviser and do a general review.

Over the past few years there has been a push inside the finance industry to get independent investors to move more into alternative investments, such as private equity.

Ironically though, as we review 2023, most big fat returns came from public equity – otherwise known as shares – especially the US.

Similarly, despite earnest entreaties for Australian investors to put their money into bonds, there have been disappointing total returns for most of the last three years.

Shares, property and cash have been the backbone of Australia SMSF and it has worked well for most people most of the time.

If you are going to diversify in the ten years before you retire, do it incrementally and very carefully.

Do everything you can to pay off your mortgage

Unfortunately, when we read about how much you should have to finance a comfortable retirement it is always on the assumption that you own your house outright. In its recent review of the perennial question ‘How much should you have in super?’ The Association of Superannuation Funds Australia produced a set of widely debated assumptions.

Put simply, there are two levels:

First is the “modest” retirement. The calculation is $100,000 in savings at age 67 is needed for either a single or couple, in reality most of the retirement income will come from the age pension.

The second level is a ‘comfortable’ retirement. The calculation being at age 67 a couple will need $690,000 of savings for a comfortable retirement, and a single person $595,000.

But here’s the thing. The number of Australians retiring with a mortgage is approaching 30 per cent – remember the value of your home is effectively irrelevant for the assessment of your pension qualification – so pay off that mortgage if possible.

Optimise high deposit rates while you can

Nobody knows where rates are headed to in 2024, but the consensus is they will start to drop in the second half of the year. If that is the case, then it is as good as it gets for cash in the bank.

What’s more, it is difficult to undervalue the peace of mind for a retiree in having “risk-free”, guaranteed money, which is what is on offer when we put cash on deposit in any bank or Authorised Deposit Taking Institution (ADI).

There are still two-year fixed deposit deals in the market at close to 5 per cent – if official rates fall from their current level of 4.35 per cent the banks will cut their own rates very quickly. In that circumstance, today’s deposit rates are going to look relatively attractive.

Rainy day money

Financial advisers call this the financial reserve, or, when they are talking to so-called high net worth individuals, “the liquid account”. It is a store of money you keep for emergencies so the emergencies do not knock out your larger plans when they occur.

As a very general rule you should keep three to six months worth of ongoing expenses free in a separate account.

For pre-retirees, the liquid account is particularly relevant because you may have to retire earlier than planned and you don’t want to be caught with “sequence risk”.

Don’t expect your ten year plan to work out perfectly

Everyone in finance gets a lot wrong all the time – it’s not the exception, it’s the rule. The markets, like life itself, are full of surprises. But, if you can get your direction right then the rewards should be well worth it.

JAMES KIRBY​

WEALTH EDITOR

 

[Value Collector]

Its a very interesting thread and certainly posters are sharing their experience at creating financial success and independence.

Obviously "we" , those who are posting, are the success stories. Whether it was starting 60-70 years years ago, developing careful habits, creating successful investment strategies and perhaps a dose of good fortune, at this stage we can talk about the financial success of our lives.

The question posed by Tech/a is more contemporary.
How would a 20 year old today achieve this financial independence ? The current parameters of life to consider are

1) New Housing costs are 7 times average fulltime weekly earnings. ie 7 x $80k $560 k. (and is that even realistic now ?)
2) Rental costs are $300 PW if shared.
3) Actual wages will be much lower than $80k and probably part time
4) If doing a Tertiary course expect to come out with a $50k debt
5) Parents have a job and house and that's about it. They could help with a few k if absolutely necessary. They might be able to keep you at home - unless another sibling (have 2) is also in trouble.
6) You might get an inheritance in the long term future of around 30% of the house value. That assumes nothing goes pear shaped in the next 40 years

I wouldn't like to be facing that scenario.

I reckon if I had to start again at 14 with zero I would be able to do it again, probably not as high or as fast as I did this time, but I think it’s still not to hard.

 

[Belli]

Why are you not well?

But I am well @tech/a. Were you meaning to say "Why? Are you not well?"

However, I am over 70 years-of-age and whether I will be on this earth for another 40 years or more is up for debate.

As to the meaning of life is.........

 

[divs4ever]

when it comes to companies in the index going going out of business, generally it doesn’t affect the model of the index, because the company will just leave the index and be replaced by one of a similar value.

no a similar market cap, the company intrinsic value can be very different as can the expected returns over it's predecessor

at least in Australia , your ASX index is a popularity device ( not a weighing device )

and to some extent a self-perpetuating one at that

 

[Belli]

Again you post misinformation. I don't know if it is deliberate or you a doing it in ignorance. I suspect the latter. The ASX indices are not popularity devices. It depends on the index provider used, under licence, by the index fund. This is from an index provider's published methodology.

 

[divs4ever]

Again you post misinformation. I don't know if it is deliberate or you a doing it in ignorance. I suspect the latter. The ASX indices are not popularity devices. It depends on the index provider used, under licence, by the index fund. This is from an index provider's published methodology.

View attachment 168441

so how do explain the recent rash of Buy-Now-Pay-Later companies that graced that index,or maybe Linc Energy which at one stage entered the top 200 before moving o the Singapore exchange and fading in obscurity

but let's go more recent like those 'super-liquid ' stocks like BKL ( Blackmores ) or PME( which is still a top 200 stock )

PME

has a P/E ratio of 132.72

a yield ratio of 0.4%

and stuff me , it even makes and index or two

Index Participation​

Index Participation Names​

S&P/ASX 200 Health Care Equipment & Services (Industry Group)

S&P/ASX 300 Health Care Equipment & Services (Industry Group)

S&P/ASX SMALL INDUSTRIALS

S&P/ASX SMALL ORDINARIES

All Ordinaries

S&P/ASX 200 INDUSTRIAL

S&P/ASX 300 INDUSTRIALS

S&P/ASX 300

S&P/ASX 200

Trade History​

Download CSV
Trade History table

SORTDATE INASCENDINGORDER	SORTOPEN $INASCENDINGORDER	SORTHIGH $INASCENDINGORDER	SORTLOW $INASCENDINGORDER	SORTCLOSE $INASCENDINGORDER	SORTCHANGE $INASCENDINGORDER	SORTCHANGE %INASCENDINGORDER	SORTVOLUMEINASCENDINGORDER
05/01/2024	92.000	92.100	89.740	90.480	-0.800	-0.88	123,713
04/01/2024	93.800	93.800	91.160	91.280	-2.670	-2.84	167,876
03/01/2024	94.690	94.900	93.890	93.950	-2.350	-2.44	103,073
02/01/2024	95.490	96.635	95.460	96.300	0.470	0.49	81,891
29/12/2023	96.500	96.750	95.290	95.830	-0.670	-0.69	163,599
28/12/2023	96.000	96.690	95.570	96.500	0.890	0.93	93,765
27/12/2023	95.500	96.180	94.560	95.610	0.910	0.96	138,931
22/12/2023	93.090	94.830	92.670	94.700	1.330	1.42	118,473
21/12/2023	93.340	93.940	92.550	93.370	0.290	0.31	191,997
20/12/2023	95.000	95.100	92.890	93.080	-0.310	-0.33	211,572
19/12/2023	93.180	94.360	92.310	93.390	1.630	1.78	308,597
18/12/2023	93.890	94.530	91.680	91.760	-1.680	-1.80	205,252
15/12/2023	93.910	95.680	93.440	93.440	0.180	0.19	806,773
14/12/2023	92.980	94.000	92.350	93.260	0.880	0.95	207,139
13/12/2023	91.680	92.400	90.600	92.380	0.810	0.88	301,627
12/12/2023	90.610	91.990	90.370	91.570	0.960	1.06	272,891
11/12/2023	89.460	90.730	89.180	90.610	1.430	1.60	208,869
08/12/2023	88.990	89.860	88.570	89.180	0.000	0.00	139,843
07/12/2023	89.160	90.620	88.740	89.180	-0.260	-0.29	190,523
06/12/2023	89.460	89.930	88.905	89.440	0.190	0.21	188,030
05/12/2023	87.990	89.380	87.570	89.250	1.070	1.21	219,065
04/12/2023	88.720	88.980	87.450	88.180	0.120	0.14	127,310
01/12/2023	87.540	88.630	87.280	88.060	-0.350	-0.40	147,345
30/11/2023	88.510	89.130	87.890	88.410	-0.320	-0.36	259,913
29/11/2023	87.620	89.080	87.420	88.730	1.320	1.51	149,937
28/11/2023	87.010	88.670	87.010	87.410	0.420	0.48	134,126
27/11/2023	87.960	88.800	86.750	86.990	-1.090	-1.24	123,220
24/11/2023	88.910	89.900	88.080	88.080	-0.510	-0.58	211,248
23/11/2023	89.000	89.500	88.590	88.590	0.090	0.10	154,282
22/11/2023	87.680	88.970	86.770	88.500	-0.570	-0.64	633,355
21/11/2023	88.090	89.390	87.640	89.070	1.050	1.19	2,317,397
20/11/2023	88.290	88.690	85.800	88.020	0.480	0.55	208,708
17/11/2023	87.930	88.180	86.940	87.540	-0.200	-0.23	181,100
16/11/2023	86.500	87.900	85.500	87.740	0.450	0.52	149,893
15/11/2023	86.900	88.360	86.650	87.290	1.730	2.02	205,067
14/11/2023	86.720	86.850	84.935	85.560	0.290	0.34	133,803
13/11/2023	86.300	86.750	85.270	85.270	0.090	0.11	108,576
10/11/2023	84.270	85.660	84.200	85.180	-0.440	-0.51	92,091
09/11/2023	85.830	86.250	84.180	85.620	0.410	0.48	189,401
08/11/2023	84.500	85.490	84.500	85.210	1.110	1.32	295,200
07/11/2023	81.450	84.300	81.450	84.100	2.480	3.04	533,541
06/11/2023	82.000	82.990	81.470	81.620	-0.050	-0.06	108,033
03/11/2023	81.090	82.380	80.600	81.670	1.780	2.23	126,865
02/11/2023	79.400	80.320	78.830	79.890	1.490	1.90	205,994
01/11/2023	75.570	78.400	74.950	78.400	3.860	5.18	361,014
31/10/2023	76.200	77.210	74.400	74.540	-1.550	-2.04	254,021
30/10/2023	75.200	76.890	74.500	76.090	0.060	0.08	101,652
27/10/2023	75.860	78.560	74.750	76.030	0.170	0.22	124,338
26/10/2023	76.770	77.430	74.920	75.860	-1.460	-1.89	177,627
25/10/2023	77.800	78.520	76.870	77.320	-0.480	-0.62	134,224
24/10/2023	79.420	79.765	77.660	77.800	-1.570	-1.98	104,454
23/10/2023	76.980	79.795	76.840	79.370	1.210	1.55	95,176
20/10/2023	78.410	79.090	77.730	78.160	-1.410	-1.77	113,998
19/10/2023	79.170	79.950	77.590	79.570	-0.750	-0.93	187,033
18/10/2023	81.750	82.000	79.200	80.320	-0.950	-1.17	120,000
17/10/2023	82.990	83.000	80.910	81.270	-0.990	-1.20	121,807
16/10/2023	82.830	84.020	81.780	82.260	-1.230	-1.47	147,922
13/10/2023	83.210	84.960	82.140	83.490	-0.030	-0.04	151,302
12/10/2023	82.970	84.210	81.890	83.520	0.380	0.46	256,336
11/10/2023	82.400	83.550	81.000	83.140	-0.400	-0.48	179,717
10/10/2023	84.500	84.500	82.900	83.540	0.650	0.78	143,062
09/10/2023	83.300	83.400	82.390	82.890	0.050	0.06	109,570
06/10/2023	82.840	83.490	82.160	82.840	-0.160	-0.19	118,699
05/10/2023	83.110	83.440	82.000	83.000	0.600	0.73	232,227
04/10/2023	82.000	82.700	80.420	82.400	-0.280	-0.34	338,569
03/10/2023	83.220	84.000	82.070	82.680	-1.130	-1.35	313,521
02/10/2023	83.900	84.550	82.900	83.810	0.420	0.50	197,076
29/09/2023	80.890	83.810	80.630	83.390	2.220	2.74	197,592
28/09/2023	80.080	82.250	80.080	81.170	0.510	0.63	370,432
27/09/2023	79.550	80.710	79.080	80.660	0.650	0.81	382,194
26/09/2023	74.840	80.160	74.565	80.010	8.820	12.39	361,444
25/09/2023	71.500	71.690	70.880	71.190	-0.480	-0.67	82,520
22/09/2023	71.750	72.050	71.040	71.670	-0.700	-0.97	311,908
21/09/2023	71.320	72.650	71.140	72.370	0.360	0.50	158,108
20/09/2023	71.100	72.170	70.990	72.010	0.710	1.00	154,098
19/09/2023	70.910	71.570	70.670	71.300	0.380	0.54	88,825
18/09/2023	72.560	72.720	70.890	70.920	-2.420	-3.30	97,007
15/09/2023	73.220	73.770	72.980	73.340	1.230	1.71	275,879
14/09/2023	71.300	72.640	71.300	72.110	0.570	0.80	157,174
13/09/2023	71.820	72.610	71.290	71.540	-0.800	-1.11	83,122
12/09/2023	73.200	73.570	70.750	72.340	-0.520	-0.71	259,746
11/09/2023	72.500	73.200	72.290	72.860	-0.010	-0.01	115,717
08/09/2023	73.500	73.500	72.540	72.870	-0.300	-0.41	83,642
07/09/2023	72.800	73.300	72.320	73.170	0.210	0.29	119,013
06/09/2023	73.010	73.690	72.650	72.960	-0.200	-0.27	123,220
05/09/2023	72.080	73.160	71.570	73.160	0.360	0.49	160,745
04/09/2023	73.060	73.500	72.430	72.800	-0.160	-0.22	81,312
01/09/2023	73.500	73.910	72.300	72.960	-0.360	-0.49	111,947
31/08/2023	74.750	74.910	72.900	73.320	-0.760	-1.03	419,055
30/08/2023	74.850	74.850	73.320	74.080	0.000	0.00	118,407
29/08/2023	73.270	74.460	72.810	74.080	0.810	1.11	141,040
28/08/2023	73.140	73.270	71.790	73.270	0.750	1.03	65,496
25/08/2023	71.910	72.820	71.520	72.520	-0.620	-0.85	108,277
24/08/2023	72.670	73.480	72.110	73.140	1.080	1.50	128,898
23/08/2023	72.070	72.540	71.380	72.060	-0.670	-0.92	125,748
22/08/2023	71.200	72.730	71.030	72.730	1.580	2.22	161,012
21/08/2023	71.000	71.690	70.190	71.150	1.050	1.50	148,484
18/08/2023	69.750	70.600	68.750	70.100	-0.780	-1.10	244,479
17/08/2023	69.270	70.880	68.950	70.880	0.810	1.16	202,626
16/08/2023	73.310	73.535	69.300	70.070	-2.440	-3.37	358,478
15/08/2023	74.050	74.990	72.120	72.510	2.890	4.15	468,387
14/08/2023	68.680	69.620	68.070	69.620	0.590	0.85	176,803
11/08/2023	69.780	70.400	68.920	69.030	-0.910	-1.30	136,487
10/08/2023	70.760	70.760	69.260	69.940	-0.980	-1.38	115,409
09/08/2023	70.540	71.030	70.200	70.920	-0.580	-0.81	140,650
08/08/2023	70.860	71.500	70.720	71.500	0.470	0.66	131,461
07/08/2023	70.700	71.170	70.300	71.030	0.790	1.12	125,634
04/08/2023	69.650	70.240	69.120	70.240	0.340	0.49	160,172
03/08/2023	69.600	70.150	68.495	69.900	-1.180	-1.66	140,924
02/08/2023	70.350	71.600	69.920	71.080	2.060	2.98	232,764
01/08/2023	68.610	69.730	68.350	69.020	0.230	0.33	156,375
31/07/2023	69.960	70.550	68.370	68.790	-0.490	-0.71	276,388
28/07/2023	68.880	69.870	67.690	69.280	1.340	1.97	222,769
27/07/2023	67.750	68.800	67.230	67.940	0.990	1.48	156,457
26/07/2023	67.220	67.690	66.500	66.950	0.060	0.09	96,150
25/07/2023	67.500	67.900	65.890	66.890	-0.120	-0.18	101,144
24/07/2023	66.510	67.360	66.010	67.010	0.510	0.77	134,038
21/07/2023	65.640	67.070	65.155	66.500	0.720	1.09	162,894
20/07/2023	65.750	66.500	65.480	65.780	0.030	0.05	63,566
19/07/2023	65.960	66.150	65.560	65.750	-0.080	-0.12	70,542
18/07/2023	65.940	66.450	65.330	65.830	-0.090	-0.14	91,720
17/07/2023	66.060	66.500	65.480	65.920	0.430	0.66	268,965
14/07/2023	65.000	65.680	64.000	65.490	0.590	0.91	114,433
13/07/2023	64.840	65.140	64.640	64.900	1.060	1.66	115,536
12/07/2023	64.150	64.750	63.680	63.840	0.110	0.17	168,050
11/07/2023	63.260	63.730	62.190	63.730	1.280	2.05	244,592
10/07/2023	62.900	62.920	61.950	62.450	-0.490	-0.78	161,763
07/07/2023	63.100	63.450	62.050	62.940	-1.130	-1.76	146,755
06/07/2023	63.770	64.700	63.360	64.070	-0.130	-0.20	132,302
05/07/2023	65.110	65.330	64.050	64.200	-1.480	-2.25	103,445
04/07/2023	65.170	66.120	65.000	65.680	-0.130	-0.20	135,911
03/07/2023	66.710	67.140	65.750	65.810	0.170	0.26	158,105
30/06/2023	65.900	66.300	65.040	65.640	-0.840	-1.26	159,898
29/06/2023	66.810	66.810	65.250	66.480	0.720	1.09	420,867
28/06/2023	65.770	66.930	65.300	65.760	0.450	0.69	208,970
27/06/2023	65.190	65.480	64.510	65.310	-0.150	-0.23	213,978
26/06/2023	64.800	65.720	64.560	65.460	0.330	0.51	163,881
23/06/2023	67.000	67.230	64.730	65.130	-1.890	-2.82	143,065
22/06/2023	68.570	68.775	66.540	67.020	-2.290	-3.30	205,699
21/06/2023	70.000	70.990	69.310	69.310	-0.500	-0.72	159,495
20/06/2023	69.360	69.890	68.340	69.810	1.320	1.93	237,447
19/06/2023	69.000	69.260	67.910	68.490	-0.320	-0.47	166,189
16/06/2023	66.670	69.310	66.320	68.810	2.680	4.05	520,481
15/06/2023	64.770	66.520	64.770	66.130	1.370	2.12	194,861
14/06/2023	65.740	65.740	64.455	64.760	-0.590	-0.90	179,548
13/06/2023	63.260	65.350	63.200	65.350	2.270	3.60	194,262
09/06/2023	63.500	63.500	62.470	63.080	0.320	0.51	124,987
08/06/2023	62.250	63.420	62.250	62.760	-0.720	-1.13	151,575
07/06/2023	63.230	64.060	62.900	63.480	0.460	0.73	117,814
06/06/2023	65.260	65.490	63.020	63.020	-2.120	-3.25	235,851
05/06/2023	63.000	65.220	62.970	65.140	2.990	4.81	294,775
02/06/2023	61.940	62.980	61.550	62.150	0.500	0.81	216,415
01/06/2023	59.910	61.980	59.820	61.650	2.300	3.88	197,266
31/05/2023	59.960	60.040	58.600	59.350	-1.050	-1.74	597,317
30/05/2023	60.500	60.990	60.150	60.400	0.090	0.15	75,161
29/05/2023	60.750	61.210	60.260	60.310	0.430	0.72	168,597
26/05/2023	59.000	59.960	58.840	59.880	0.440	0.74	209,837
25/05/2023	59.020	59.990	58.990	59.440	-0.370	-0.62	156,019
24/05/2023	60.460	60.500	59.810	59.810	-0.690	-1.14	148,313
23/05/2023	60.670	61.525	60.160	60.500	0.150	0.25	178,957
22/05/2023	60.410	60.600	59.645	60.350	-0.220	-0.36	145,502
19/05/2023	60.380	60.810	59.460	60.570	0.600	1.00	114,828
18/05/2023	59.440	60.175	58.745	59.970	0.340	0.57	189,601
17/05/2023	59.310	59.980	59.020	59.630	-0.190	-0.32	134,878
16/05/2023	60.350	61.040	59.320	59.820	-0.380	-0.63	221,867
15/05/2023	60.180	60.400	59.200	60.200	-0.610	-1.00	123,994
12/05/2023	59.960	60.820	59.640	60.810	1.040	1.74	138,921
11/05/2023	60.200	60.200	59.370	59.770	0.060	0.10	151,701
10/05/2023	59.290	60.020	59.290	59.710	-0.190	-0.32	135,023
09/05/2023	59.970	60.260	59.380	59.900	-0.070	-0.12	163,111
08/05/2023	60.380	60.380	59.270	59.970	-0.310	-0.51	193,475
05/05/2023	60.250	60.480	59.760	60.280	0.090	0.15	112,198
04/05/2023	60.050	60.820	59.815	60.190	-0.060	-0.10	118,778
03/05/2023	60.250	60.320	59.040	60.250	-0.580	-0.95	160,713
02/05/2023	61.140	62.190	60.300	60.830	0.350	0.58	163,191
01/05/2023	61.820	61.990	60.350	60.480	-0.960	-1.56	200,796
28/04/2023	62.270	62.660	61.380	61.440	-0.250	-0.41	149,537
27/04/2023	62.040	62.450	61.470	61.690	-0.380	-0.61	65,566
26/04/2023	62.750	62.750	61.690	62.070	-1.100	-1.74	171,911
24/04/2023	63.510	63.670	62.835	63.170	0.370	0.59	83,091
21/04/2023	62.210	62.970	61.865	62.800	0.260	0.42	152,735
20/04/2023	62.630	62.990	62.220	62.540	0.090	0.14	184,235
19/04/2023	62.060	62.580	61.590	62.450	0.000	0.00	229,529
18/04/2023	62.520	62.690	61.260	62.450	-1.040	-1.64	249,826
17/04/2023	64.010	64.700	63.280	63.490	0.150	0.24	143,320
14/04/2023	64.010	64.250	62.980	63.340	-0.500	-0.78	129,014
13/04/2023	63.480	63.960	62.540	63.840	0.360	0.57	126,722
12/04/2023	63.940	64.120	63.000	63.480	0.050	0.08	114,441
11/04/2023	64.220	64.220	63.430	63.430	0.030	0.05	125,087
06/04/2023	64.790	65.080	63.000	63.400	-1.000	-1.55	121,942
05/04/2023	65.190	65.340	64.270	64.400	0.000	0.00	228,936
04/04/2023	64.670	65.140	64.170	64.400	-0.220	-0.34	143,414
03/04/2023	64.600	65.630	64.355	64.620	0.750	1.17	166,355

and all done with 104.40 million shares outstanding ....

but

Substantial Shareholders List As of 30 Jun 2023​

NAME	SHARE HOLDING	SHARES HELD (%)
Sam Aaron Hupert	26,137,660	25.03%
Hall, Anthony Barry	26,109,000	25.00%

Director Interest as of Last Notice​

NAME	LAST NOTICE DATE	DIRECT SHARES	INDIRECT SHARES	OPTIONS	CONVERTIBLES
Dr Sam Aaron Hupert	21/11/2023	25,072,660	65,000	0	--
Mr Anthony Barry Hall	21/11/2023	24,200,000	979,000	0	--
Mr Peter Terence Kempen	13/03/2023	--	629,082	0	--
Ms Alice Joan Morrice Williams	27/11/2023	900	--	--	--
Ms Deena Robyn Shiff	21/08/2020	0	1,923	--	--
Mr Anthony James Glenning	19/03/2020	0	9,525	--	--
Dr Leigh Bernard Farrell	17/03/2020	0	4,240	--	--

so chances are the directors aren't short-term trading their holdings much

 

[Knobby22]

But I am well @tech/a. Were you meaning to say "Why? Are you not well?"

However, I am over 70 years-of-age and whether I will be on this earth for another 40 years or more is up for debate.

As to the meaning of life is.........

I think we both thought you were stating you wouldn't see 2025!

 

[Knobby22]

so how do explain the recent rash of Buy-Now-Pay-Later companies that graced that index,or maybe Linc Energy which at one stage entered the top 200 before moving o the Singapore exchange and fading in obscurity

but let's go more recent like those 'super-liquid ' stocks like BKL ( Blackmores ) or PME( which is still a top 200 stock )

PME

has a P/E ratio of 132.72

a yield ratio of 0.4%

and stuff me , it even makes and index or two

Index Participation​

Index Participation Names​

S&P/ASX 200 Health Care Equipment & Services (Industry Group)

S&P/ASX 300 Health Care Equipment & Services (Industry Group)

S&P/ASX SMALL INDUSTRIALS

S&P/ASX SMALL ORDINARIES

All Ordinaries

S&P/ASX 200 INDUSTRIAL

S&P/ASX 300 INDUSTRIALS

S&P/ASX 300

S&P/ASX 200

Trade History​

Download CSV
Trade History table

SORTDATE INASCENDINGORDER	SORTOPEN $INASCENDINGORDER	SORTHIGH $INASCENDINGORDER	SORTLOW $INASCENDINGORDER	SORTCLOSE $INASCENDINGORDER	SORTCHANGE $INASCENDINGORDER	SORTCHANGE %INASCENDINGORDER	SORTVOLUMEINASCENDINGORDER
05/01/2024	92.000	92.100	89.740	90.480	-0.800	-0.88	123,713
04/01/2024	93.800	93.800	91.160	91.280	-2.670	-2.84	167,876
03/01/2024	94.690	94.900	93.890	93.950	-2.350	-2.44	103,073
02/01/2024	95.490	96.635	95.460	96.300	0.470	0.49	81,891
29/12/2023	96.500	96.750	95.290	95.830	-0.670	-0.69	163,599
28/12/2023	96.000	96.690	95.570	96.500	0.890	0.93	93,765
27/12/2023	95.500	96.180	94.560	95.610	0.910	0.96	138,931
22/12/2023	93.090	94.830	92.670	94.700	1.330	1.42	118,473
21/12/2023	93.340	93.940	92.550	93.370	0.290	0.31	191,997
20/12/2023	95.000	95.100	92.890	93.080	-0.310	-0.33	211,572
19/12/2023	93.180	94.360	92.310	93.390	1.630	1.78	308,597
18/12/2023	93.890	94.530	91.680	91.760	-1.680	-1.80	205,252
15/12/2023	93.910	95.680	93.440	93.440	0.180	0.19	806,773
14/12/2023	92.980	94.000	92.350	93.260	0.880	0.95	207,139
13/12/2023	91.680	92.400	90.600	92.380	0.810	0.88	301,627
12/12/2023	90.610	91.990	90.370	91.570	0.960	1.06	272,891
11/12/2023	89.460	90.730	89.180	90.610	1.430	1.60	208,869
08/12/2023	88.990	89.860	88.570	89.180	0.000	0.00	139,843
07/12/2023	89.160	90.620	88.740	89.180	-0.260	-0.29	190,523
06/12/2023	89.460	89.930	88.905	89.440	0.190	0.21	188,030
05/12/2023	87.990	89.380	87.570	89.250	1.070	1.21	219,065
04/12/2023	88.720	88.980	87.450	88.180	0.120	0.14	127,310
01/12/2023	87.540	88.630	87.280	88.060	-0.350	-0.40	147,345
30/11/2023	88.510	89.130	87.890	88.410	-0.320	-0.36	259,913
29/11/2023	87.620	89.080	87.420	88.730	1.320	1.51	149,937
28/11/2023	87.010	88.670	87.010	87.410	0.420	0.48	134,126
27/11/2023	87.960	88.800	86.750	86.990	-1.090	-1.24	123,220
24/11/2023	88.910	89.900	88.080	88.080	-0.510	-0.58	211,248
23/11/2023	89.000	89.500	88.590	88.590	0.090	0.10	154,282
22/11/2023	87.680	88.970	86.770	88.500	-0.570	-0.64	633,355
21/11/2023	88.090	89.390	87.640	89.070	1.050	1.19	2,317,397
20/11/2023	88.290	88.690	85.800	88.020	0.480	0.55	208,708
17/11/2023	87.930	88.180	86.940	87.540	-0.200	-0.23	181,100
16/11/2023	86.500	87.900	85.500	87.740	0.450	0.52	149,893
15/11/2023	86.900	88.360	86.650	87.290	1.730	2.02	205,067
14/11/2023	86.720	86.850	84.935	85.560	0.290	0.34	133,803
13/11/2023	86.300	86.750	85.270	85.270	0.090	0.11	108,576
10/11/2023	84.270	85.660	84.200	85.180	-0.440	-0.51	92,091
09/11/2023	85.830	86.250	84.180	85.620	0.410	0.48	189,401
08/11/2023	84.500	85.490	84.500	85.210	1.110	1.32	295,200
07/11/2023	81.450	84.300	81.450	84.100	2.480	3.04	533,541
06/11/2023	82.000	82.990	81.470	81.620	-0.050	-0.06	108,033
03/11/2023	81.090	82.380	80.600	81.670	1.780	2.23	126,865
02/11/2023	79.400	80.320	78.830	79.890	1.490	1.90	205,994
01/11/2023	75.570	78.400	74.950	78.400	3.860	5.18	361,014
31/10/2023	76.200	77.210	74.400	74.540	-1.550	-2.04	254,021
30/10/2023	75.200	76.890	74.500	76.090	0.060	0.08	101,652
27/10/2023	75.860	78.560	74.750	76.030	0.170	0.22	124,338
26/10/2023	76.770	77.430	74.920	75.860	-1.460	-1.89	177,627
25/10/2023	77.800	78.520	76.870	77.320	-0.480	-0.62	134,224
24/10/2023	79.420	79.765	77.660	77.800	-1.570	-1.98	104,454
23/10/2023	76.980	79.795	76.840	79.370	1.210	1.55	95,176
20/10/2023	78.410	79.090	77.730	78.160	-1.410	-1.77	113,998
19/10/2023	79.170	79.950	77.590	79.570	-0.750	-0.93	187,033
18/10/2023	81.750	82.000	79.200	80.320	-0.950	-1.17	120,000
17/10/2023	82.990	83.000	80.910	81.270	-0.990	-1.20	121,807
16/10/2023	82.830	84.020	81.780	82.260	-1.230	-1.47	147,922
13/10/2023	83.210	84.960	82.140	83.490	-0.030	-0.04	151,302
12/10/2023	82.970	84.210	81.890	83.520	0.380	0.46	256,336
11/10/2023	82.400	83.550	81.000	83.140	-0.400	-0.48	179,717
10/10/2023	84.500	84.500	82.900	83.540	0.650	0.78	143,062
09/10/2023	83.300	83.400	82.390	82.890	0.050	0.06	109,570
06/10/2023	82.840	83.490	82.160	82.840	-0.160	-0.19	118,699
05/10/2023	83.110	83.440	82.000	83.000	0.600	0.73	232,227
04/10/2023	82.000	82.700	80.420	82.400	-0.280	-0.34	338,569
03/10/2023	83.220	84.000	82.070	82.680	-1.130	-1.35	313,521
02/10/2023	83.900	84.550	82.900	83.810	0.420	0.50	197,076
29/09/2023	80.890	83.810	80.630	83.390	2.220	2.74	197,592
28/09/2023	80.080	82.250	80.080	81.170	0.510	0.63	370,432
27/09/2023	79.550	80.710	79.080	80.660	0.650	0.81	382,194
26/09/2023	74.840	80.160	74.565	80.010	8.820	12.39	361,444
25/09/2023	71.500	71.690	70.880	71.190	-0.480	-0.67	82,520
22/09/2023	71.750	72.050	71.040	71.670	-0.700	-0.97	311,908
21/09/2023	71.320	72.650	71.140	72.370	0.360	0.50	158,108
20/09/2023	71.100	72.170	70.990	72.010	0.710	1.00	154,098
19/09/2023	70.910	71.570	70.670	71.300	0.380	0.54	88,825
18/09/2023	72.560	72.720	70.890	70.920	-2.420	-3.30	97,007
15/09/2023	73.220	73.770	72.980	73.340	1.230	1.71	275,879
14/09/2023	71.300	72.640	71.300	72.110	0.570	0.80	157,174
13/09/2023	71.820	72.610	71.290	71.540	-0.800	-1.11	83,122
12/09/2023	73.200	73.570	70.750	72.340	-0.520	-0.71	259,746
11/09/2023	72.500	73.200	72.290	72.860	-0.010	-0.01	115,717
08/09/2023	73.500	73.500	72.540	72.870	-0.300	-0.41	83,642
07/09/2023	72.800	73.300	72.320	73.170	0.210	0.29	119,013
06/09/2023	73.010	73.690	72.650	72.960	-0.200	-0.27	123,220
05/09/2023	72.080	73.160	71.570	73.160	0.360	0.49	160,745
04/09/2023	73.060	73.500	72.430	72.800	-0.160	-0.22	81,312
01/09/2023	73.500	73.910	72.300	72.960	-0.360	-0.49	111,947
31/08/2023	74.750	74.910	72.900	73.320	-0.760	-1.03	419,055
30/08/2023	74.850	74.850	73.320	74.080	0.000	0.00	118,407
29/08/2023	73.270	74.460	72.810	74.080	0.810	1.11	141,040
28/08/2023	73.140	73.270	71.790	73.270	0.750	1.03	65,496
25/08/2023	71.910	72.820	71.520	72.520	-0.620	-0.85	108,277
24/08/2023	72.670	73.480	72.110	73.140	1.080	1.50	128,898
23/08/2023	72.070	72.540	71.380	72.060	-0.670	-0.92	125,748
22/08/2023	71.200	72.730	71.030	72.730	1.580	2.22	161,012
21/08/2023	71.000	71.690	70.190	71.150	1.050	1.50	148,484
18/08/2023	69.750	70.600	68.750	70.100	-0.780	-1.10	244,479
17/08/2023	69.270	70.880	68.950	70.880	0.810	1.16	202,626
16/08/2023	73.310	73.535	69.300	70.070	-2.440	-3.37	358,478
15/08/2023	74.050	74.990	72.120	72.510	2.890	4.15	468,387
14/08/2023	68.680	69.620	68.070	69.620	0.590	0.85	176,803
11/08/2023	69.780	70.400	68.920	69.030	-0.910	-1.30	136,487
10/08/2023	70.760	70.760	69.260	69.940	-0.980	-1.38	115,409
09/08/2023	70.540	71.030	70.200	70.920	-0.580	-0.81	140,650
08/08/2023	70.860	71.500	70.720	71.500	0.470	0.66	131,461
07/08/2023	70.700	71.170	70.300	71.030	0.790	1.12	125,634
04/08/2023	69.650	70.240	69.120	70.240	0.340	0.49	160,172
03/08/2023	69.600	70.150	68.495	69.900	-1.180	-1.66	140,924
02/08/2023	70.350	71.600	69.920	71.080	2.060	2.98	232,764
01/08/2023	68.610	69.730	68.350	69.020	0.230	0.33	156,375
31/07/2023	69.960	70.550	68.370	68.790	-0.490	-0.71	276,388
28/07/2023	68.880	69.870	67.690	69.280	1.340	1.97	222,769
27/07/2023	67.750	68.800	67.230	67.940	0.990	1.48	156,457
26/07/2023	67.220	67.690	66.500	66.950	0.060	0.09	96,150
25/07/2023	67.500	67.900	65.890	66.890	-0.120	-0.18	101,144
24/07/2023	66.510	67.360	66.010	67.010	0.510	0.77	134,038
21/07/2023	65.640	67.070	65.155	66.500	0.720	1.09	162,894
20/07/2023	65.750	66.500	65.480	65.780	0.030	0.05	63,566
19/07/2023	65.960	66.150	65.560	65.750	-0.080	-0.12	70,542
18/07/2023	65.940	66.450	65.330	65.830	-0.090	-0.14	91,720
17/07/2023	66.060	66.500	65.480	65.920	0.430	0.66	268,965
14/07/2023	65.000	65.680	64.000	65.490	0.590	0.91	114,433
13/07/2023	64.840	65.140	64.640	64.900	1.060	1.66	115,536
12/07/2023	64.150	64.750	63.680	63.840	0.110	0.17	168,050
11/07/2023	63.260	63.730	62.190	63.730	1.280	2.05	244,592
10/07/2023	62.900	62.920	61.950	62.450	-0.490	-0.78	161,763
07/07/2023	63.100	63.450	62.050	62.940	-1.130	-1.76	146,755
06/07/2023	63.770	64.700	63.360	64.070	-0.130	-0.20	132,302
05/07/2023	65.110	65.330	64.050	64.200	-1.480	-2.25	103,445
04/07/2023	65.170	66.120	65.000	65.680	-0.130	-0.20	135,911
03/07/2023	66.710	67.140	65.750	65.810	0.170	0.26	158,105
30/06/2023	65.900	66.300	65.040	65.640	-0.840	-1.26	159,898
29/06/2023	66.810	66.810	65.250	66.480	0.720	1.09	420,867
28/06/2023	65.770	66.930	65.300	65.760	0.450	0.69	208,970
27/06/2023	65.190	65.480	64.510	65.310	-0.150	-0.23	213,978
26/06/2023	64.800	65.720	64.560	65.460	0.330	0.51	163,881
23/06/2023	67.000	67.230	64.730	65.130	-1.890	-2.82	143,065
22/06/2023	68.570	68.775	66.540	67.020	-2.290	-3.30	205,699
21/06/2023	70.000	70.990	69.310	69.310	-0.500	-0.72	159,495
20/06/2023	69.360	69.890	68.340	69.810	1.320	1.93	237,447
19/06/2023	69.000	69.260	67.910	68.490	-0.320	-0.47	166,189
16/06/2023	66.670	69.310	66.320	68.810	2.680	4.05	520,481
15/06/2023	64.770	66.520	64.770	66.130	1.370	2.12	194,861
14/06/2023	65.740	65.740	64.455	64.760	-0.590	-0.90	179,548
13/06/2023	63.260	65.350	63.200	65.350	2.270	3.60	194,262
09/06/2023	63.500	63.500	62.470	63.080	0.320	0.51	124,987
08/06/2023	62.250	63.420	62.250	62.760	-0.720	-1.13	151,575
07/06/2023	63.230	64.060	62.900	63.480	0.460	0.73	117,814
06/06/2023	65.260	65.490	63.020	63.020	-2.120	-3.25	235,851
05/06/2023	63.000	65.220	62.970	65.140	2.990	4.81	294,775
02/06/2023	61.940	62.980	61.550	62.150	0.500	0.81	216,415
01/06/2023	59.910	61.980	59.820	61.650	2.300	3.88	197,266
31/05/2023	59.960	60.040	58.600	59.350	-1.050	-1.74	597,317
30/05/2023	60.500	60.990	60.150	60.400	0.090	0.15	75,161
29/05/2023	60.750	61.210	60.260	60.310	0.430	0.72	168,597
26/05/2023	59.000	59.960	58.840	59.880	0.440	0.74	209,837
25/05/2023	59.020	59.990	58.990	59.440	-0.370	-0.62	156,019
24/05/2023	60.460	60.500	59.810	59.810	-0.690	-1.14	148,313
23/05/2023	60.670	61.525	60.160	60.500	0.150	0.25	178,957
22/05/2023	60.410	60.600	59.645	60.350	-0.220	-0.36	145,502
19/05/2023	60.380	60.810	59.460	60.570	0.600	1.00	114,828
18/05/2023	59.440	60.175	58.745	59.970	0.340	0.57	189,601
17/05/2023	59.310	59.980	59.020	59.630	-0.190	-0.32	134,878
16/05/2023	60.350	61.040	59.320	59.820	-0.380	-0.63	221,867
15/05/2023	60.180	60.400	59.200	60.200	-0.610	-1.00	123,994
12/05/2023	59.960	60.820	59.640	60.810	1.040	1.74	138,921
11/05/2023	60.200	60.200	59.370	59.770	0.060	0.10	151,701
10/05/2023	59.290	60.020	59.290	59.710	-0.190	-0.32	135,023
09/05/2023	59.970	60.260	59.380	59.900	-0.070	-0.12	163,111
08/05/2023	60.380	60.380	59.270	59.970	-0.310	-0.51	193,475
05/05/2023	60.250	60.480	59.760	60.280	0.090	0.15	112,198
04/05/2023	60.050	60.820	59.815	60.190	-0.060	-0.10	118,778
03/05/2023	60.250	60.320	59.040	60.250	-0.580	-0.95	160,713
02/05/2023	61.140	62.190	60.300	60.830	0.350	0.58	163,191
01/05/2023	61.820	61.990	60.350	60.480	-0.960	-1.56	200,796
28/04/2023	62.270	62.660	61.380	61.440	-0.250	-0.41	149,537
27/04/2023	62.040	62.450	61.470	61.690	-0.380	-0.61	65,566
26/04/2023	62.750	62.750	61.690	62.070	-1.100	-1.74	171,911
24/04/2023	63.510	63.670	62.835	63.170	0.370	0.59	83,091
21/04/2023	62.210	62.970	61.865	62.800	0.260	0.42	152,735
20/04/2023	62.630	62.990	62.220	62.540	0.090	0.14	184,235
19/04/2023	62.060	62.580	61.590	62.450	0.000	0.00	229,529
18/04/2023	62.520	62.690	61.260	62.450	-1.040	-1.64	249,826
17/04/2023	64.010	64.700	63.280	63.490	0.150	0.24	143,320
14/04/2023	64.010	64.250	62.980	63.340	-0.500	-0.78	129,014
13/04/2023	63.480	63.960	62.540	63.840	0.360	0.57	126,722
12/04/2023	63.940	64.120	63.000	63.480	0.050	0.08	114,441
11/04/2023	64.220	64.220	63.430	63.430	0.030	0.05	125,087
06/04/2023	64.790	65.080	63.000	63.400	-1.000	-1.55	121,942
05/04/2023	65.190	65.340	64.270	64.400	0.000	0.00	228,936
04/04/2023	64.670	65.140	64.170	64.400	-0.220	-0.34	143,414
03/04/2023	64.600	65.630	64.355	64.620	0.750	1.17	166,355

and all done with 104.40 million shares outstanding ....

but

Substantial Shareholders List As of 30 Jun 2023​

NAME	SHARE HOLDING	SHARES HELD (%)
Sam Aaron Hupert	26,137,660	25.03%
Hall, Anthony Barry	26,109,000	25.00%

Director Interest as of Last Notice​

NAME	LAST NOTICE DATE	DIRECT SHARES	INDIRECT SHARES	OPTIONS	CONVERTIBLES
Dr Sam Aaron Hupert	21/11/2023	25,072,660	65,000	0	--
Mr Anthony Barry Hall	21/11/2023	24,200,000	979,000	0	--
Mr Peter Terence Kempen	13/03/2023	--	629,082	0	--
Ms Alice Joan Morrice Williams	27/11/2023	900	--	--	--
Ms Deena Robyn Shiff	21/08/2020	0	1,923	--	--
Mr Anthony James Glenning	19/03/2020	0	9,525	--	--
Dr Leigh Bernard Farrell	17/03/2020	0	4,240	--	--

so chances are the directors aren't short-term trading their holdings much

Gee, maybe they should have some directors stock option deal where they can get 50 shares!

 

[tech/a]

Its a very interesting thread and certainly posters are sharing their experience at creating financial success and independence.

Obviously "we" , those who are posting, are the success stories. Whether it was starting 60-70 years years ago, developing careful habits, creating successful investment strategies and perhaps a dose of good fortune, at this stage we can talk about the financial success of our lives.

The question posed by Tech/a is more contemporary.
How would a 20 year old today achieve this financial independence ? The current parameters of life to consider are

1) New Housing costs are 7 times average fulltime weekly earnings. ie 7 x $80k $560 k. (and is that even realistic now ?)
2) Rental costs are $300 PW if shared.
3) Actual wages will be much lower than $80k and probably part time
4) If doing a Tertiary course expect to come out with a $50k debt
5) Parents have a job and house and that's about it. They could help with a few k if absolutely necessary. They might be able to keep you at home - unless another sibling (have 2) is also in trouble.
6) You might get an inheritance in the long term future of around 30% of the house value. That assumes nothing goes pear shaped in the next 40 years

I wouldn't like to be facing that scenario.

Basilio is correct and this is the crux of my topic.

The question won't go away and it CAN be done.

I've let this thread run some course before putting in my 2 cents worth.

There have been some good responses but like most, they fall short on application.

Hindsight is brilliantly correct. Past case examples in both compounding and opportunity do nothing for Practical application that we can use NOW.

The following is my personal view. Like some others here am fortunate enough to have made the top 1% in this country but not without a great deal of Right Place Right time and a solid understanding and implementation of the following. I refer to myself in actual practical case examples not a look at me exercise.

You are just not going to be able to become financially independent on a wage even two wages. (P.A.Y.E) You need more –some ideas---

(1) Initially you need to understand Scalability. How can you multiply your hourly rate? As a PAYE you are a slave to what it is your employer is offering and what you think you are worth. You need to look at how you can value add to your employer. The first thing you need to do is find a job where you can value add AND find an employer that will reward you for value adding. Simply this means making more MEASURABLE profit for your employer. I did this in my first job at 17 by selling tires, Radiator Flushes, and services to customers when I was Pumping Gas!--- Later when training as a printing estimator I developed a scheduling system that saved 3 wages. I made more from commissions than my wage.

Later again I multiplied my clients in a lawn Round adding an employee so in the same hours I made around another Half of his wage--- PLUS each client was worth $150 in the dollar for re-sale.

Later again I was able to do the similar with a labor force, Earthmoving equipment, and property not to mention stock and index trading. You just need to get creative but------ you need Stage 2

My time and effort is scalable.

(2) Using Other people's Money (Leverage). Money makes money don't ever forget it. The more you can get the more opportunities will be available to you. Lenders want Asset backing and affordability this can be a longer process but with the addition of (1) you can build your way to a stronger position in (2) Eventually you will have lenders coming to YOU! See the beauty of these arrangements is that lenders only want their interest payments NOT your Capital gain you want that often. This leads to the question what first?

Buy a house, Car, Super, Short-term investments, cash at the bank, or Business!!

My goal was and if I did it again would still be freeing up as much as I could for liquidity -why will become clearer in the body of this post.

I wanted to build a capital base quickly and I couldn't do that without taking some risk and without readily available cash.

Young Families often mean one wage for a short term at least. Rent, Saving, or Paying off a home, Super? Time! Where do I get funds to start my Compounding journey. The issue is having enough to make any sort of investment meaningful. Finding an extra $10K-$50K a year is too many unthinkable.

To me cash (Liquidity) is king if you don’t have sizable amounts available then you WILL miss opportunities. I suggest any investment you make has the ability to return on your capital. Loans don’t tend to do that unless you are using them in Business, or you are savvy with leverage. In My case, I bought my first business allowing me to control my income and opening the door to earnings/Profit well above my PAYE hourly wage before a house. For those here on ASF short-term trading can return sizable sums with small amounts. I have turned 10K to $100K on many occasions over the last 30 Years. Right Place right Time and understanding RISK.

(3) Self-Employment or P.A.Y.E ?

Many go on the path of small business. It’s important to understand that in most conventional cases (Save Only Fans net-related businesses). Most only make a wage for themselves with increased working hours and Stress. In My opinion and experience with many in business Small business needs to turn over > $3,000,000 under that and you’re just making a wage for yourself perhaps a healthy wage but often not worth (Seemingly ) The effort. But get to the Breakeven point of Fixed and variable overheads quickly in any one month or quarter and the Profit rises exponentially.

A little more on Scalability.

Now do that with more than one arm of a business or buy multiple businesses---rinse and repeat! The same goes for your wife and or partner. ( take on a partner I had one for 10 years ).

(4) Risk

Preservation of capital TO ME is paramount. I’m happy to put it at risk but not to the point of ruin. In business, if I have a losing month I need to know why if I don’t have an answer then there is a problem. In trading long and in particular short term I have a stop in place. I can’t see the point

Of “Doing the same thing day in and day out and expecting a different result “ if having no plan is destroying my capital base in that allocated investment. Be decisive I’d rather make a hasty call on preserving my capital on multiple occasions than hope and pray on the one occasion I lost all my capital at RISK.

(5) Opportunities

They are around us all the time. Put your risk mitigation in place and take every opportunity you can identify. Just one can change your life. They come and go as quickly as they appear.

(6) Passive income.

Inflation is always a risk. Never more so than when retiring. $3 million Today won’t be as healthy in 20 years. This is why we need to make several investments in the development of passive income. I have quite a few.
Property Rental
Long term Stock investments
I am the equity partner in more than one business.
2 Air B&Bs

All of these established over many years remain in place and regardless of capital invested remain for the most part ahead of inflation and the erosion of capital not geared to combat it. I don't need a pension.

I do hope this is helpful no matter where you are on your journey toward financial independence for you and your family. It can be done ---My son is a Doctor of Physics and I never passed Year 11 (Leaving). Anything is possible all you need to do is MAKE IT HAPPEN.

Tech

 

[Value Collector]

Basilio is correct and this is the crux of my topic.

The question won't go away and it CAN be done.

I've let this thread run some course before putting in my 2 cents worth.

There have been some good responses but like most, they fall short on application.

Hindsight is brilliantly correct. Past case examples in both compounding and opportunity do nothing for Practical application that we can use NOW.

The following is my personal view. Like some others here am fortunate enough to have made the top 1% in this country but not without a great deal of Right Place Right time and a solid understanding and implementation of the following. I refer to myself in actual practical case examples not a look at me exercise.

You are just not going to be able to become financially independent on a wage even two wages. (P.A.Y.E) You need more –some ideas---

(1) Initially you need to understand Scalability. How can you multiply your hourly rate? As a PAYE you are a slave to what it is your employer is offering and what you think you are worth. You need to look at how you can value add to your employer. The first thing you need to do is find a job where you can value add AND find an employer that will reward you for value adding. Simply this means making more MEASURABLE profit for your employer. I did this in my first job at 17 by selling tires, Radiator Flushes, and services to customers when I was Pumping Gas!--- Later when training as a printing estimator I developed a scheduling system that saved 3 wages. I made more from commissions than my wage.

Later again I multiplied my clients in a lawn Round adding an employee so in the same hours I made around another Half of his wage--- PLUS each client was worth $150 in the dollar for re-sale.

Later again I was able to do the similar with a labor force, Earthmoving equipment, and property not to mention stock and index trading. You just need to get creative but------ you need Stage 2

My time and effort is scalable.

(2) Using Other people's Money (Leverage). Money makes money don't ever forget it. The more you can get the more opportunities will be available to you. Lenders want Asset backing and affordability this can be a longer process but with the addition of (1) you can build your way to a stronger position in (2) Eventually you will have lenders coming to YOU! See the beauty of these arrangements is that lenders only want their interest payments NOT your Capital gain you want that often. This leads to the question what first?

Buy a house, Car, Super, Short-term investments, cash at the bank, or Business!!

My goal was and if I did it again would still be freeing up as much as I could for liquidity -why will become clearer in the body of this post.

I wanted to build a capital base quickly and I couldn't do that without taking some risk and without readily available cash.

Young Families often mean one wage for a short term at least. Rent, Saving, or Paying off a home, Super? Time! Where do I get funds to start my Compounding journey. The issue is having enough to make any sort of investment meaningful. Finding an extra $10K-$50K a year is too many unthinkable.

To me cash (Liquidity) is king if you don’t have sizable amounts available then you WILL miss opportunities. I suggest any investment you make has the ability to return on your capital. Loans don’t tend to do that unless you are using them in Business, or you are savvy with leverage. In My case, I bought my first business allowing me to control my income and opening the door to earnings/Profit well above my PAYE hourly wage before a house. For those here on ASF short-term trading can return sizable sums with small amounts. I have turned 10K to $100K on many occasions over the last 30 Years. Right Place right Time and understanding RISK.

(3) Self-Employment or P.A.Y.E ?

Many go on the path of small business. It’s important to understand that in most conventional cases (Save Only Fans net-related businesses). Most only make a wage for themselves with increased working hours and Stress. In My opinion and experience with many in business Small business needs to turn over > $3,000,000 under that and you’re just making a wage for yourself perhaps a healthy wage but often not worth (Seemingly ) The effort. But get to the Breakeven point of Fixed and variable overheads quickly in any one month or quarter and the Profit rises exponentially.

A little more on Scalability.

Now do that with more than one arm of a business or buy multiple businesses---rinse and repeat! The same goes for your wife and or partner. ( take on a partner I had one for 10 years ).

(4) Risk

Preservation of capital TO ME is paramount. I’m happy to put it at risk but not to the point of ruin. In business, if I have a losing month I need to know why if I don’t have an answer then there is a problem. In trading long and in particular short term I have a stop in place. I can’t see the point

Of “Doing the same thing day in and day out and expecting a different result “ if having no plan is destroying my capital base in that allocated investment. Be decisive I’d rather make a hasty call on preserving my capital on multiple occasions than hope and pray on the one occasion I lost all my capital at RISK.

(5) Opportunities

They are around us all the time. Put your risk mitigation in place and take every opportunity you can identify. Just one can change your life. They come and go as quickly as they appear.

(6) Passive income.

Inflation is always a risk. Never more so than when retiring. $3 million Today won’t be as healthy in 20 years. This is why we need to make several investments in the development of passive income. I have quite a few.
Property Rental
Long term Stock investments
I am the equity partner in more than one business.
2 Air B&Bs

All of these established over many years remain in place and regardless of capital invested remain for the most part ahead of inflation and the erosion of capital not geared to combat it. I don't need a pension.

I do hope this is helpful no matter where you are on your journey toward financial independence for you and your family. It can be done ---My son is a Doctor of Physics and I never passed Year 11 (Leaving). Anything is possible all you need to do is MAKE IT HAPPEN.

Tech

I disagree, even small savings from PAYE wages compounds into large amounts if you start early enough, and no need to do anything fancy, just dollar cost into the Asx300 index and you will do fine over time.

if you also end up owning your own home, even better.

i know multiple people that would have been better to stick with there employment rather than go down the self employed route.

as I have said before it’s not where you earn your money that matters it’s what you do with it.

its not hard, golden rule is just spend less than you earn, and invest the difference.

 

[tech/a]

VC
I’m sure it can be done. You’re right.

Just offering up some alternate thoughts.
Its tougher today than at any past to make it on a wage only
To Own your own home and finally have enough to last tI’ll the end.

Life is more interesting and hopeful when there are alternatives.

Getting started on the journey regardless of what shape it takes
is the hardest step of all, particularly in a meaningful quantity.
Even worse when all doesn’t go to plan.

 

[Value Collector]

VC

Its tougher today than at any past to make it on a wage only
To Own your own home and finally have enough to last tI’ll the end.

I definitely wouldn’t say that it’s tougher today than at any time in the past. I mean think about how bad it was for average workers in the pre WW2 days during the Great Depression or 1800’s etc.

Even just the fact we have super today makes it easier, some one starting out today that works from 18 to 65 will have a huge amount in their super (provided the don’t let insurances eat it up or invest to conservatively)

———————-

I am pretty sure these guys didn‘t have a super account or investment portfolio of any size to fall back on, or the many government safety nets.

The average worker today lives better than JD, Rockefeller did back in the day. Wages have never been so high and saving and investing has never been so easy. But you have to have the willingness to do it, I mean if you don’t care about your super, it will probably under perform due to not being set up correctly, if you don’t want to save, you fall behind. The information is there but you have to care, it’s no difference to fitness, it easy to keep fit, but you have to care, no one will force you to workout.

 

[tech/a]

VC

living to 90 + in the 1800s was virtually un heard of
Around 60.
Didnt have the temptation of a new BMW or a JetSki
or ability to take an overseas holiday every year.
Even in these time those who thought outside of the square
did better than the working class.
don’t know that long term Compounding was an option
available let alone understood then .

Sure a tough life
In 200 years it’s a very different planet with vastly different
needs.