Israel - Palestine

[Macquack]

I just saw this again and completely gagged, confirming the entire lack of gratitude for those who actually gave their lives in the service of their nations to uphold the values you shout from the bleachers about. This is an unbelievably callous statement and a complete insult to to those whose sacrifice for Australia and the United States you will hopefully never equal. Take that survey, and see if you survive the first 100 visits.

Australia lost 40,500 lives in the war with many many more wounded.

The United States lost 418,500 lives with many many more wounded.

What kind of warped mind comes up with the statement you have just made? This hits rock bottom. You cannot produce anything more vile than this.

....the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it..... disgusting.

LuuTzu: I will put up as a wager, the value of whatever assets you can muster together, down to the cufflink, including whatever 50 years of your personal servitude might be worth as a servant of the War Memorials in Australia and in the US. I will take that bet. I will take that bet RIGHT NOW.

You and Luutzu are basically on the same page, denouncing war, aren't you?

Luutzu is giving a voice to the underdogs, the Palestinians.

Israel can look after itself.

 

[Bintang]

Israel can look after itself.

You seem to be acknowledging that Israel has the right to defend itself?

 

[DeepState]

1. You and Luutzu are basically on the same page, denouncing war, aren't you?

2. Luutzu is giving a voice to the underdogs, the Palestinians.

3. Israel can look after itself.

Well, hello.


1. Really?

I am never excusing that terrorism or violence... and in many ways, I'm happy for myself and my children that the Western powers have to prop up dictators and control to world... because as far as i'm concern, that's good for me and my children.. .and I hope the US and the Western powers continue to dominate and China and Russia and all other powers remain weak lest my kids have to go to war...

I think he's pretty happy to wage war and for others to have their blood spilled and rights violated because "that's good for him (me) and his children". A real peace maker. Let's sing Kumbuyah around the campfire. I'll bring marshmallows.



2. It's a strange kind of voice he's giving to the Palestinians as underdogs:

It might appear that I have a thing for Hamas, but I don't think it's fair to take the fact that I neither defend nor support them to mean that I am on their side... I just don't know enough about them or what they've done, or bothered to look up their histories etc etc..

I mean, beat up the Palestinians for all I care... I'm old enough and will slowly not be surprised at the things people do...

Perhaps my comprehension is off. I think it's an undecided for Hamas and 'beat up the Palestinians for all I care' for the, uhh, Palestinians.


3. He is not arguing that, although you might:

Israel has invaded another country and has weapons of mass destruction.

I think we should go in and kick Benjamin Netanyahu ass, the same way we gave it to Saddam Hussein (who did not even have weapons of mass destruction).

LuuTzu's position is that it's OK to wage war in his name if it directly benefits him and his kids, but it's bad for Israel to wage war in their national interests because they have somehow used his name yadda yadda...

So Israel can lie and do what they do for their national interests, just don't use my name or lie to me about doing it to project my values and how we're both alike. Why? Because it's morally offensive what they're doing, doing it in my name, I get no benefit from it but might one day have to pay the price for their greed.

And he finds THAT morally offensive.


Is this difference in our positions quite clear enough? Is the hypocrisy of Luutzu's moral position now clear enough for all on this thread to see in brilliant HD, that can be loaded onto YouTube?

When I press <Submit Reply> this hits the web. The NSA can pick it up. All the best. I think I'm done here. Mission Accomplished.

 

[Macquack]

You seem to be acknowledging that Israel has the right to defend itself?

So do the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.

 

[noco]

Some well expressed,impeccable logic from one person in particular which, thank goodness, helps to balance out the rubbish, especially including those where asterisks appear to replace a more edifying vocabulary.

Just on what is unfolding in Iraq, I'm reminded of the pathetic, whining attempt at justification after it was demonstrated that there were no WMD, "Well, we did them a favour by getting rid of that evil dictator, Saddam".
Not looking like such a great idea now, is it?

Julia, I must agree with you in that many of those middle East and North African dictatorships ruled with an iron fist and they did keep their citizens under control whether by fair or foul means, but not so in Syria where two Muslims factions are fighting each other. Saddam Hussein did do a lot of ethnic cleansing by eliminating the Kurds which are another Muslim faction...He gassed the Kurds....but we did not hear anything from the Human Rights organization protesting about his cowardly act on human life.

I believe some of the trouble may have been caused by the USA in trying to convert these regimes into the Western way of democracy and it has not worked......Israel however is a western style democracy which does not suit the bordering countries hence their determination to rid the area of Jews.

 

[Bintang]

So do the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.

OK. Fine. So does that mean we should all just let them get on with it?
The talkfest/threadfests can go on forever but they will not change anything.
Neither will Ban Ki-moon.

 

[Bintang]

I believe some of the trouble may have been caused by the USA in trying to convert these regimes into the Western way of democracy and it has not worked......Israel however is a western style democracy which does not suit the bordering countries hence their determination to rid the area of Jews.

What if the territory of Israel was a western style democracy but inhabited 100% by muslims. Would this be as equally bothersome for the bordering countries.

 

[Macquack]

2. It's a strange kind of voice he's giving to the Palestinians as underdogs:

Quote Originally Posted by luutzu View Post

It might appear that I have a thing for Hamas, but I don't think it's fair to take the fact that I neither defend nor support them to mean that I am on their side... I just don't know enough about them or what they've done, or bothered to look up their histories etc etc..

I mean, beat up the Palestinians for all I care... I'm old enough and will slowly not be surprised at the things people do...

I think you will find lutzu was speaking in jest.

When I press <Submit Reply> this hits the web. The NSA can pick it up. All the best. I think I'm done here. Mission Accomplished.

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[noco]

What if the territory of Israel was a western style democracy but inhabited 100% by muslims. Would this be as equally bothersome for the bordering countries.

As far as know there is no democracy in Muslim countries except perhaps Indonesia....I really believe it revolves around which Muslim faction is in control....it is either a moderate one or a radical one.

I don't believe you would ever have a Western style Muslim so therefore you would never see 100% Muslims in Israel....they are totally different in their ideology and beliefs for a start.

 

[DeepState]

1. I think you will find lutzu was speaking in jest.



2. What is that supposed to mean?

What do you know....the mission did not actually conclude per plan.

1. Can you please tell me which part of the extensive response to Bellenuit in post #135 was written in jest, written in truth, intended to be accurate but putting words in his/her mouth, misconstruing the prior post...it would be helpful because I have to take it literally given all the tangents presented.

LuuTzu doesn't like it when people get pounded by stronger forces. He is indifferent whether they be Palestinians or some other set of opposition. That's about the only coherent outcome that I can fathom from the various entries in order for them to have internal consistency.

His main point is that war is bad unless favourable to him and his family. He finds it morally reprehensible that Israel somehow dragged his name, country and values into it.

Let's go over some new ground. In 2003, a war was started. It was a coalition of willing countries which allied in the common understanding that, in the choice of being "with us or against us", it was absolutely clear that those who were with the US included Great Britain and Australia and.....my goodness, would you look at that, Israel. Israel was with Australia, shared its values and was probably given a Deputy Sherriff badge as well. The US and Australia were happy enough to partner with Israel in the fight Iraq II in the name of democracy, freedom, Western values and in joint national interest... Their interests were so strongly aligned that the greatest fear of the western alliance was that a missile strike onto Israeli territory would bring a hail of war into Iraq from the IDF given the need to retaliate. This would set off a tinder box in the entire region. So a wall of Patriot missiles was erected to protect against this possibility. That's how strong the bond was.

What suddenly changed such that Israel's ability or right to make the claim that they share these values and see it as a binding identity? They/we fought a war together. It was only a decade ago. If Israel falls, imagine the sense of power this will give to its enemies and the consequent effects this would actually have for the national interests of the west....that includes Australia's allies and trading partners.

Even if the whole thing was a fiction, we go back to Mearsheimer and Morganthau. Nations with power will use it. They will create context. They will do what it takes to get the objective they desire...including bringing a hail of shrapnel onto the populace that elected them. Do you think it would be good strategy to claim legitimacy via talking about shared values? Probably. Wait a minute, wasn't that the line used by the US in fabricating WMD and then going about getting as many confirmatory signatures as possible (including Macedonia, whose contribution to the war was....a letter of support)? Weren't we a part of this? Are you morally outraged? Or you're not because it benefited you and your kids.

Maybe this is clear?

Even if you wish to disagree with that, the context for Luutzu's outrage, being a war in his name with no benefit to him as opposed to a war of equivalent ferocity if it benefited him should be obvious in its hypocrisy. Further, he is happy to enjoy the freedoms that come from oppression (unless that was said in jest as well) of others, although the activity of achieving this dusgusts him personally and he is insulted at the prospect/imagination of having to bear arms and deploy them if he were actually at the frontline of the oppression which presumably would benefit his kids. He casts indignation at the thought that he would act as one of the soldiers that oppresses on his behalf might have to. Hypocracy. Happy to get the benefits. Morally outraged when others seek the same using propoganda. Indignant about the price paid and morally outraged at what others do so he is able to make these absurd, internally warped and inconsistent claims.


2. This was not obvious enough.

Who are the oppressors and the violated? The CIA is currently apologising for spying on the US Senate and for the harshness of its interrogation methods which violated the 'laws of war' they helped to draft. Snowden has unfurled the offensive nature of intrusion into the lives of everyone. US citizens, heads of state of our allies and probably our own government, ordinary citizens. The NSA is the largest security apparatus in the US and monitors everything that generates a signal. They know you. They know me. They can profile us in an instant, they know if we are a risk if the templates match what they think a dangerous profile looks like. It's the same process as detecting fraudulent spending on your credit card, figuring out what you like to buy without you even being aware of it...but on speed.

We are victims of our own defenders. They do this in our name. They did this without our consent. It violates anything that can be reasonably called western democratic values. Are you morally outraged?

LuuTzu can be morally outraged if he wants. In this country, it's UnAustralian (what is that exactly? Are they making up something that drags my name and values into some amorphous concept that binds with LuuTzu's without my consent? I am morally outraged!!), to silence disagreement. Sometimes, I just try to ignore it...other times, I engage.

 

[luutzu]

I just saw this again and completely gagged, confirming the entire lack of gratitude for those who actually gave their lives in the service of their nations to uphold the values you shout from the bleachers about. This is an unbelievably callous statement and a complete insult to to those whose sacrifice for Australia and the United States you will hopefully never equal. Take that survey, and see if you survive the first 100 visits.

Australia lost 40,500 lives in the war with many many more wounded.

The United States lost 418,500 lives with many many more wounded.

What kind of warped mind comes up with the statement you have just made? This hits rock bottom. You cannot produce anything more vile than this.

....the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it..... disgusting.

LuuTzu: I will put up as a wager, the value of whatever assets you can muster together, down to the cufflink, including whatever 50 years of your personal servitude might be worth as a servant of the War Memorials in Australia and in the US. I will take that bet. I will take that bet RIGHT NOW.

WOW!

Put some context into what I say, at least give me that.

Did I say no one but the Jewish people suffer in WW2? I am pretty sure I wrote the opposite of that... and that's still written in black and white up there.

Do you know why until a month ago for me, and apparently still with you and most in the Western world, we ignore what's going on between Israel-Palestine? Why most of the world glance at the occupation of Palestine and just shrug?

Because we've been taught about the evil of Hitler - killing so many millions of innocent Jews; because we've seen movies after movies about the death and suffering of the Jewish people; because we've seen the mainstream news on the side of Israel each and every time it kill the Arabs; because Arabs are terrorists and Israelis are like us, the good guys fighting for survival in a harsh and tyrannical world.

I've seen and known about the Holocaust, the concentration camps, the ghettos, the Jewish uprising years before I even known about the number of Polish Holocaust (20 million deaths?), long before the deaths of some 26 million Russians, long before what Imperial Japan did to the Chinese at Nanjing... to this day, I still don't know how many Vietnamese were killed and murdered by Imperial Japan during WW2 - do you?

I can't believe I have to explain that I meant the Holocaust and the suffering of the Jews in WW2 are so big in popular culture, so entrench in the mind of the general Western public that i would bet if you do a survey, most will think the Jews have had it the worst during WW2... that the public would think they're the only one that suffered.



---
And if you read and listen to Israel and its supporters over the past decades til now... what do you often hear? "Never again", "we will not be silent", "we're protecting our people, our citizens", we're the only democracy in the Middle East; the Arab Israelis are the only Arabs living in a democracy (Netanyahu actually said this); "what would you do"; new wave of anti-Semitic hate; Iran is the new Nazi Germany; this and that guy I don't like is the new Hitler... and on and on...

People are generally good, and when it is just accepted fact in their books and popular culture (and I am not denying this fact) that the Jewish people were murdered by Nazi Germany because of racism, because of their faith... then to hear their media and Israel saying it's the good guy and the Arabs are terrorists... people, because they could not possibly comprehend the possibility that a people who suffered greatly because of racism, a people who were systematically subjugated in ghettos, then murdered en mass... not many could imagine that this same group of people could then turn around and do exactly the same thing to another group of people!

 

[luutzu]

Well, hello.

1. Really?

I think he's pretty happy to wage war and for others to have their blood spilled and rights violated because "that's good for him (me) and his children". A real peace maker. Let's sing Kumbuyah around the campfire. I'll bring marshmallows.

2. It's a strange kind of voice he's giving to the Palestinians as underdogs:

Perhaps my comprehension is off. I think it's an undecided for Hamas and 'beat up the Palestinians for all I care' for the, uhh, Palestinians.

3. He is not arguing that, although you might:

LuuTzu's position is that it's OK to wage war in his name if it directly benefits him and his kids, but it's bad for Israel to wage war in their national interests because they have somehow used his name yadda yadda...


And he finds THAT morally offensive.

Is this difference in our positions quite clear enough? Is the hypocrisy of Luutzu's moral position now clear enough for all on this thread to see in brilliant HD, that can be loaded onto YouTube?

When I press <Submit Reply> this hits the web. The NSA can pick it up. All the best. I think I'm done here. Mission Accomplished.

So Retired Young, are you going to give all your money away now? Or will you claim a tax refund on some charitable donation I assume you must have made through the year?

Does the fact that you help one person but not help all people make you a hypocrite? Does the fact that you donate to a couple charities but not to all charities make you a hypocrite? Does the fact you like your neighbours and talk to them but lock your doors at night make you immoral?

Would you rather the US, our fairly close friend, dominate the world or would you rather China or Indonesia be the next super power challenging the US?


Didn't I say that Israel could beat the Palestinians for all I care?
Did I not say that the strong will always subjugate the weak?
Did I not also say that I like to think of myself as that Australian diplomat who think it is wrong and immoral to use funny maths and geography to take gas fields off the East Timorese or Indonesian, but he was part of it for the national interests of Australian?

So having said all that, how am I being hypocritical when I tell Israel to not use my name in their wars and their murder of people because there's no benefit for me (and my family)... and not only will there be no benefit to me, I might one day have to pay for their crimes.


Would you like it if I use your name, and get your friends to say that you fully support me.... to use your name, pay you nothing but use your reputation and "managed" people's money.

Following your logic to its conclusions, since anyone would steal and lie anyway, I sure could use your name and claim your support for my interests... it's OK to pay you nothing but if people ever sue you or claim damages against you for my deeds, you'll be fine too because you're not a hypocrite.

------

Didn't I also say that to help the Palestinians is like helping a beggar - you got to give him money, help him get back on his feet, help him build a place to live, get nothing back for it but the hatred of a powerful thug; and that is why, as Chomsky said, no one cares for what happen to the Palestinians.

If it may appear that I care for the wrongs being done to them... maybe I have more of a conscience than you who think to be moral is to give everything up and be with the poor, anything other than that is hypocritical.

Gag on that.



So am I still a hypocrite or just a petty little man, like I said I was up there as well.

 

[luutzu]

1. Seems to have sailed over your head like a Scud missile as per so many of the comments made in response to your views.

The point was to highlight that Australia, Great Britain and the US lead a coalition of the willing under a context (World Trade) and under very poor intel about WMD that was so bad it can only be regarded as formulated pretext (say, the killing of three Israeli kids by their own army as you can't seem to rule out) to invade a country because it had WMD as was part of a newly invented Axis of Evil, turn it upside down, killed and maimed so many multiples of the people you are talking about here, with weaponry so far ahead of the opposition that they might as well be throwing rocks. What we...you live in the country...did can be seen in the same light as you see Israel. Actually, it was far worse. We also live with democratic values yadda yadda. Many people in this country don't like to kill either. They don't like to see little kids under rubble either. But we did it. And you are part of it, just like a stack of other Israelis are part of their war despite having similar humanitarian urges. And we left behind a catastrophe whose full horror has yet to reveal itself. That's what a power vacuum looks like. Israel is a cute kitty cat in comparison to this. And you live and breathe and enjoy the freedoms and benefits of a country that did this.

If the actions of Israel upset you, Behold the horror of the nation you live in, under whose protections you enjoy. And we don't even have to go into the Vietnam War, do we?

Welcome to the world, you're standing in it.


2. How is that different to what John Howard was saying? Israel cannot lose a war. That's the reality. You keep going on and on about Mearsheimer. Morganthau was his mentor. Dr. Realist. Mearsheimer added some tought to it. International politics occurs in an anarchic framework. In this world, which is the one you actually live in were you to look beyond documentaries, nations compete. They expand where they can. They want more. And, so the world develops. What you are seeing in Israel/Palestine is realism in action writ large. Feel free to carry a World Peace protect flag. This stuff is truly ugly. You don't have to like it. But Israel is just acting as Mearsheimer and Morganthau would predict.

The greatest bastion of democracy and its values is the US. Are you aware of the amount of stuff they get up to in the name of defending the way of life? They've probably got you bugged and know which YouTube videos you have been watching to check if you are a jihadist. Think about it....before you click on another anti-Israeli link. Are you aware of how many wars, skirmishes, indirect financing, toppling of leadership, violations of human rights, atom bombs released....have taken place to defend the values you want so much? This is the price. There is no Boxing Day discount for this. This is the price. Mistakes and all.


3. Yes there is. France, the UK, Poland and Russia also had a lot of Germans near their borders too. Rather a lot closer to their densely populated centers. When they tried not to provoke the re-militarizing Germans (let's not upset them....nooo.. they might hate us and hurt us...). Umm...let me spell it out. The European Theatre descended into World War II. Thus far, the greatest human tragedy we have ever recorded. That's what appeasement does.


4. ....and the US avenged the deaths of Americans in the Trade Centre completely disproportionately. Radicalizing a stack of Muslims, many more of which would gladly fly a plane into the White House. Great move that. The deal that was done with Saudi Arabia in terms of oil vs protection was made with the leadership. It was genuinely important for US strategic interests. These are the trade-offs on a world scale. As Kissinger puts it, statesmen should be exempt from war crimes, because of the things they must do to defend their states. If you don't like it and think it hypocritical, you might wish to reconsider whether what they say as truth. Think like Mearsheimer. What comes out of their mouths is what you want to hear. Then they get on with the actual realities. We all liked fairy tales once. Some of us still seem to.

How many of Bin Laden's family were living it up in the US when the twin towers were hit? He might have hated the US, but a whole bunch of others seemed pretty happy about it. Can't please every radical, I guess.


5. .....open...your...eyes.


6. You don't have to like it. It is disgusting. You don't have to pull the trigger if a rifle was put in your hands. You can hand it to the guy charging at you with a fixed bayonet instead. But, many soldiers in war feel the same. Check out the history of Gallipoli when it became trench warfare. They just wanted to go home too. No-one says this is nice. Well, not me, anyway.


7. You still don't know it. Can you not make some allowance for the variety of comments you have received to see the barest morsel of truth in them? After all, they are reasonably aligned in disagreement and don't seem to write as if they are the same poster on multiple accounts. From the thread the likelihood is, actually, no. You won't listen and things therefore will not change and you will go on about it and think something uniquely hyprocritical is going on, whose values you do not share despite happily sharing in the benefits. Peace is so precious. But often the price is war.

In this case, it is a blood feud. That is the nastiest form of war.

??

The US wiped out most natives; so were the Australians; so were this and that... well no kidding.
Should I not be outraged at what Israel is doing or just accept it as a fact of life?

Oh wait, when I do accept it as a fact of life and I like the current world order, i'm a hypocrite... but when I dare get upset at Israel, I'm a little kid who haven't grown up yet....


Summary of your points:
So peace is precious and the price is war; and war is murder and nasty and not for appeasers like me; To let Hamas or the Palestinian in peace is like Chamberlain and other appeasers and you get Hitler all over again.

A fair summary?


My Rebuttal:

Fact: Israel started the current crisis [July 8, 2014] - It does so because Hamas and the PA was forming a unity party so they can represent both Gaza and the West Bank; so they can then negotiate with Israel. Look it up, youtube or paid subscription media would be fine;

Fact: When you start a war to break potential peace talks, is the price of that precious peace still war?

Fact: Israel has "some" nukes, a powerful military, the Palestinians need Israel's permission to take a piss. Does peace still need war as the price?

Fact: All Arab nations has long abandoned the Palestinians; the Palestinian leadership, back to the time of Arafat at least til now have wanted a two state solution, has agreed to give up 80% of their historic homeland for what ever Israel thought ought to be their 20%... Israel and the US has long denied this peace talks and keep on blaming the Palestinians for not wanting peace.

So peace might not have to be paid for by war, must it then be paid for by total subjugation of your rights and dignity, total lost of all your land? Must that be the price of peace if not war?


You take all their land, what you don't or can't take, you have total control over... then when their leadership want to negotiate, you said no and no and no for 47 years now... then after being occupied and suppressed and not having your surrender with some term for your own dignity, you fought back... then you have morons around the world saying, see... terrorists, to give in to these poor and uneducated sand monkeys is appeasement... and war is cruel, the world is cruel but it must be done and we don't like it but that's the price of peace.

 

[luutzu]

There is no right. No-one gets to claim the moral high ground. And yet, once again, where nations fail, you stand atop the mountain of righteousness enjoying the view without bothering to look at the fact that this mountain is covered in blood. Get it?

No-one gets to claim the moral high ground? Tell that to Israel.

I think you seriously believe you know more facts because you paid for it. Cheese, I wonder if I run a news/media company that I make more money from subscribers or from businesses buying advertisements.

Who needs to grow up i wonder.



Ever ask why the mountain is covered in blood?

An Israeli General Peled, as cited from his son's lecture (free btw on youtube), have urged the Israeli gov't after the victory of the 1967 war, the war that he played a major part in... that General who love Israel, who fought and willing to die for its beliefs... that man advise his gov't to negotiate and establish a two state settlement - one for his Israel, one for the native Palestinian who had now been defeated and whose allies are no more and who will take what is given to them because they have no other choice...

That man's advise was ignored and Israel since, as Chomsky said, has ever since chose expansion over peace.

General Peled, then his son, then his daughter... they spend their life trying to help the Palestinians, trying to tell the world the injustices done to the Palestinians and how to peacefully help both people...

These people, whose loyalty to Israel cannot be questioned, whose deeds cannot be questioned... are outraged at the injustices, at the greed and "realism" done by their beloved country... do they too not know the facts? Is a general commanding Israeli soldiers not know reality and morality?

 

[So_Cynical]

Here is a video from an important source of knowledge, YouTube. It is even set to music. It relates to a lie the Western alliance, including Australia's Prime Minister, concocted in our name in order to invade another sovereign state. It resulted in the deaths of over 7,000 military personnel. It led to the deaths and permanent wounding of many many more who just wanted to get on with their lives, but had their doors kicked in routinely and much worse. It has left a power vacuum which has now destabilized the country, region, and created blowback of enormous proportion.

Mission accomplished somewhat, The Iraq war/invasion was about the US and Allies taking the war on terror to a battlefield, a theatre of war where western civilians were not in harms way, any Muslim nutter who could afford a plane ticket went to Iraq to wage Al-Qa'ida's war, the Allies had em right where they wanted them.

 

[luutzu]

What do you know....the mission did not actually conclude per plan.

1. Can you please tell me which part of the extensive response to Bellenuit in post #135 was written in jest, written in truth, intended to be accurate but putting words in his/her mouth, misconstruing the prior post...it would be helpful because I have to take it literally given all the tangents presented.

LuuTzu doesn't like it when people get pounded by stronger forces. He is indifferent whether they be Palestinians or some other set of opposition. That's about the only coherent outcome that I can fathom from the various entries in order for them to have internal consistency.

His main point is that war is bad unless favourable to him and his family. He finds it morally reprehensible that Israel somehow dragged his name, country and values into it.

Let's go over some new ground. In 2003, a war was started. It was a coalition of willing countries which allied in the common understanding that, in the choice of being "with us or against us", it was absolutely clear that those who were with the US included Great Britain and Australia and.....my goodness, would you look at that, Israel. Israel was with Australia, shared its values and was probably given a Deputy Sherriff badge as well. The US and Australia were happy enough to partner with Israel in the fight Iraq II in the name of democracy, freedom, Western values and in joint national interest... Their interests were so strongly aligned that the greatest fear of the western alliance was that a missile strike onto Israeli territory would bring a hail of war into Iraq from the IDF given the need to retaliate. This would set off a tinder box in the entire region. So a wall of Patriot missiles was erected to protect against this possibility. That's how strong the bond was.

What suddenly changed such that Israel's ability or right to make the claim that they share these values and see it as a binding identity? They/we fought a war together. It was only a decade ago. If Israel falls, imagine the sense of power this will give to its enemies and the consequent effects this would actually have for the national interests of the west....that includes Australia's allies and trading partners.

Even if the whole thing was a fiction, we go back to Mearsheimer and Morganthau. Nations with power will use it. They will create context. They will do what it takes to get the objective they desire...including bringing a hail of shrapnel onto the populace that elected them. Do you think it would be good strategy to claim legitimacy via talking about shared values? Probably. Wait a minute, wasn't that the line used by the US in fabricating WMD and then going about getting as many confirmatory signatures as possible (including Macedonia, whose contribution to the war was....a letter of support)? Weren't we a part of this? Are you morally outraged? Or you're not because it benefited you and your kids.

Maybe this is clear?

Even if you wish to disagree with that, the context for Luutzu's outrage, being a war in his name with no benefit to him as opposed to a war of equivalent ferocity if it benefited him should be obvious in its hypocrisy. Further, he is happy to enjoy the freedoms that come from oppression (unless that was said in jest as well) of others, although the activity of achieving this dusgusts him personally and he is insulted at the prospect/imagination of having to bear arms and deploy them if he were actually at the frontline of the oppression which presumably would benefit his kids. He casts indignation at the thought that he would act as one of the soldiers that oppresses on his behalf might have to. Hypocracy. Happy to get the benefits. Morally outraged when others seek the same using propoganda. Indignant about the price paid and morally outraged at what others do so he is able to make these absurd, internally warped and inconsistent claims.


2. This was not obvious enough.

Who are the oppressors and the violated? The CIA is currently apologising for spying on the US Senate and for the harshness of its interrogation methods which violated the 'laws of war' they helped to draft. Snowden has unfurled the offensive nature of intrusion into the lives of everyone. US citizens, heads of state of our allies and probably our own government, ordinary citizens. The NSA is the largest security apparatus in the US and monitors everything that generates a signal. They know you. They know me. They can profile us in an instant, they know if we are a risk if the templates match what they think a dangerous profile looks like. It's the same process as detecting fraudulent spending on your credit card, figuring out what you like to buy without you even being aware of it...but on speed.

We are victims of our own defenders. They do this in our name. They did this without our consent. It violates anything that can be reasonably called western democratic values. Are you morally outraged?

LuuTzu can be morally outraged if he wants. In this country, it's UnAustralian (what is that exactly? Are they making up something that drags my name and values into some amorphous concept that binds with LuuTzu's without my consent? I am morally outraged!!), to silence disagreement. Sometimes, I just try to ignore it...other times, I engage.

First, Israel was not fighting in the Coalition of the Willing.
Only the US, UK, Aus, Poland send troops - so Israel never "fought" that war.

It provide supports then, that's also fighting... since the list was never known, according the a free source wikipedia... we might never know if Israel was indeed in that coalition.

But if I were to believe Prof. Stephen Walt of Harvard in one of his updated lectures on the Israeli Lobby, he said that the US, with the exception of the cold war, has never been able to use Israel as an allied in its wars in the Middle East.

The main reason is not that Israel don't want to join, but that if they do, no other Arab state will join the coalition.

----

RY,

Apparently it's just personal attacks with you... I think I have given enough time to your nonsense.

Would you send your kids to fight our wars? I bet you would not.

Does enjoying the liberty and freedom, courtesy of "our" oppression by "our" soldiers while ignoring the suffering of another people and philosophically tells them it's reality, it's life and I can't say a thing because that would be hypocritical.

Does that make you a better person?
Let say I'm what you said I am - a hypocrite... What does it make you a person who apparently have no financial worries, who retired young, who were blessed with good fortune... what does it make you who have everything and sit there and shrug at the suffering of others with comments like "that's life, grow up".

I'd rather be a hypocrite any day over what you are.


Was I around when the genocide, the wars, the deaths etc. etc. since the beginning of time to before my birth to do anything about it?

So I ought to go tell Australia and all other bad countries to undo their genocide and give up or destroy all the advances and wealth because if I am OK with them enjoying it, if I dare enjoy it too, I am a hypocrite?

Does it ever occur to you that maybe, maybe, in the real world you're standing in, in a world where time cannot be turned back and actions undone... does it occur to you that to have learn of injustice committed, wrongs done... that maybe I am against such crimes because of the very fact that I am speaking up against it?

That even if I don't speak up against all crimes committed by all states on all people then and now, the fact that I speak up against one, lend my voice to one and calling for peace and justice... maybe that is better, more useful, more just.... hypocritical as it might appear... but more learned than sitting around and just say that's the way of the world, the might will be right, the might get mightier by destroying the weak... that's in our history, that's to be our future.

Who's the appeaser?

 

[burglar]

The Appeaser!

 

[luutzu]

You and Luutzu are basically on the same page, denouncing war, aren't you?

Luutzu is giving a voice to the underdogs, the Palestinians.

Israel can look after itself.

RY seems to be OK with any wars because he had apparently built a mansion on a mountain of blood and to denounce anymore settlements on another mountain of blood is hypocritical.

I'm a better friend to Israel than those who profess to be neutral or a friend.

Firstly, I do not wish ill on Israel.

Secondly, I am trying to be a just and fair person, giving voice to those whose rights are violated.
If I do that to one group of people, I surely will do that to another group of people - Israel or otherwise.

If I am like RY and look at crimes committed by one group, see the deaths of innocents and shrug and say that's how the world is... What would RY do if the role is reversed and Israelis are harmed? He'd shrugged too.


Thirdly, and though this was mentioned by prof Walt, I truly believe that a good friend doesn't tell me what I want to hear, a good and true friend tell me what I need to hear, tell me right from wrong, tell me when I've gone too far...

A good friend try to see my interest, look at my actions, and tell me if what i'm doing is to my interests.

A good friend who goes to Church will quote me Jesus Christ that "what does it gain a man to have the whole world but lose his soul".


A person is no friend of mine if he sees me kill people to "protect" myself when I obviously just beat them up because I want their land and resources... then tells me, yea, lots of a**holes in the world lie and delude themselves and commit genocides too, so why not you...

 

[DeepState]

WOW!

1. Put some context into what I say, at least give me that.

2. Did I say no one but the Jewish people suffer in WW2? I am pretty sure I wrote the opposite of that... and that's still written in black and white up there.

3. I still don't know how many Vietnamese were killed and murdered by Imperial Japan during WW2 - do you?

4. I can't believe I have to explain that I meant the Holocaust and the suffering of the Jews in WW2 are so big in popular culture, so entrench in the mind of the general Western public that i would bet if you do a survey, most will think the Jews have had it the worst during WW2... that the public would think they're the only one that suffered.


5. And if you read and listen to Israel and its supporters over the past decades til now... what do you often hear? "Never again", "we will not be silent", "we're protecting our people, our citizens",

and on and on...

Wow, indeed.

1. The context is the trail of stuff you have whacked up on this thread as a record which will survive as long as ASF will. It's worthy of a documentary. It will be used in medical schools.


2. Did I say you said this? Put up the quote without additional propaganda please. Have you at all noticed a pattern where a number of posters are wondering where you are quoting them from despite the fact that there is no record of them saying it? Maybe it's just dumb luck. Maybe Mossad is doing it. Plausible, I guess.


3. I do not. I do know that my grand-uncle was murdered by the Japanese in front of my grand-father during the occupation. He may not be Vietnamese and I don't want to claim any moral similarity, but I think this life counted about as much as one lost in Vietnam. That was war. We must move forward despite the pain.


4. Let's compare what you said just then with what you said in the prior post to see if there are any differences, taking account that you could just have copied your original statement.

Above:

" i would bet if you do a survey, most will think the Jews have had it the worst during WW2... that the public would think they're the only one that suffered."

Prior post:

" I bet that if you do a survey of people in the US or Australia as to who suffer during WW2, the answer will be just the Jewish people and that's about it."

What BS are you peddling in your revision of history. Which one of these, in any case, is not completely vile? The fact that you can even try to repeat this insult to humanity again trying to make a point is stupendous. It confirms that the first statement was not the result of a drunken stupor. This is utterly unbelievable. Despicable. You are morally blind. Being blind, you cannot look into the mirror and see the moral equivalent of Dorian Gray staring back.

I am just itching to put this question to the Russians, who engaged in Total War. They lost between 18-25 million lives in all. You know, somewhere within a 7 million deaths range. That's just deaths. Yeah, the Jewish people and that's about it. Maybe if you interviewed the Germans, who perpetrated the atrocity in a national sense, the fact that a mere 5 million military lives lost there will be ignored also. They did not suffer. Just the Jewish people and that's about it. Reality is completely distorted. Welcome to the Hotel California. Did one just fly over the hornet's nest?


5. Have you considered what the Chinese are essentially saying? After a 'century of humiliation' of insult and death. Where more people died in the Rape of Nanjing than in the Holocaust. Where the British Empire occupied the country and plagued it with Opium and where it engaged in gunboat diplomacy to force trade on unequal terms and cede Hong Kong. Shall we engage them now in the name of your morality? They'd be pretty upset too, don't you think? Have every right to strike back after a century of containment and violation. Don't you think? China doesn't even have a democracy or western values. The term China is Zhong Guo...Centre Country. They think themselves to be the centre of the earth and rightfully so in just their name alone. From Deng, there was talk of a "peaceful rise", "biding time", "hide our capabilities". I don't think they are referring to baking at a soufflé competition.

They have nukes, a submarine fleet and an aircraft carrier that will eventually be capable of bringing fighter jets to within range of your house, or closer to the minerals and energy assets that Australia has and it so clearly needs/wants/must have. They have strategically significant energy ties with Russia which is annexing bits of the Ukraine and was involved in the downing of MH17 where Australian lives were taken. They spy and sabotage American computers of a military and civilian nature. They are engaging Japan over a territorial dispute. They are staking out claims in the South China Sea under military protection in areas which are contested by your homeland, Vietnam. The growth in their military expenditure is the fastest in the world amongst great powers...and that's just the official numbers.

Never again will the country be subjugated. Never again will its citizens suffer at the hands of foreigners. The world must accommodate China's rise. The Dragon is awakening and it is pissed off. ...and on and on... They are therefore evil, have provided context for world annihilation, will draw pity from the wider non western world with whom they are developing a rival strategic and economic block, and they must be stopped at all cost.

LuuTzu...you are go launch. The missiles are ready. Push the moral button. It's the red one. Yes, you need to fight on two fronts. Against Israel and against China.

Why don't you man up and take a butter knife to the front line and appease them to death. This will certainly affect you and your kids if your implications are to be taken as true. Better still, blog them to death with your theories. The blog is mightier than the butter knife. Or do you expect someone else to do it in your name, with your written consent of course. That makes it clean. You can sleep more soundly knowing they haven't done it without your consent. You can wake up covered in linen with a house that has heating and not on some frigate or tent where others will be in the service of your high morals and sensitivities.

I typed in "LuuTzu Israel" into Google. Nothing came up. I typed in "LuuTzu Israel" on YouTube. There were heaps of things relating to kitty cats. Apparently Israel hasn't actually done anything in your name. YouTube is source of truth. I don't think Israel actually knows you exist. Hence any effort to rope you in to their war effort is purely coincidental and unintentional, just like in the movies.



Stump up your money/labour. We can arrange a neutral arbiter. We will have the bet drafted and verified by a major law firm and sealed. Either question would be fine. The wording might be "With regards to WWII, who suffered? 1. The Jews and that's about it? 2. More than the Jews suffered. 3. From what sick mind does a question like this arise?"

The wording will not be subject to mysterious re-drafting. I will pay for it all. We put the matching assets into escrow. We appoint NewsPoll to take that survey of Australia alone as that will be sufficient. A sample of 5 should do it. Then we get an adjudication of whether just one respondent felt that someone else suffered in WW2 besides the Jewish population. That is, if so much as one respondent answers anything except 1., I own you. You offered the bet. I call. Bring it.

 

[luutzu]

RY,

What a clown.

Last I checked, my homeland is not Vietnam, but Australia.

Maybe I should do what you do and copy/paste and take things literally, word for word, out of context... But unlike some, I remember things I read... just maybe too optimistic that others are honest about what they clearly wrote.

Are you kidding me about the survey? What a fool you are man.
Let me school you between when to take things literally and when to take what's important in a sentence.

"I bet you RY is such an idiot that he will count one, two, three as.... what? You're the idiot."

The "I bet" mean: it probably is true that RY, when reading this sentence will say that last 3 words in his head first before the end of the sentence.

It doesn't mean I'm willing to literally bet my house on you reading the entire sentence, word for word, you idiot.


I'm not going to dignify your moronic mental retardation about the survey... Jesus, Mary and Joseph.


Oh, when I say Israel fighting in my name, I must literally mean it has my name and when its leadership say it's democratic etc etc and fighting for western values etc etc and "what would you do"... it then point to the book of names it meant by the word "you".

sheeshhh...

---------


And what's this about me thinking that China or Chinese being evil?

Oh, drawing similarities between a corrupt dictatorship in China with Israel... that's apt.

You're off topic... go back to your investment fluff, i'll get there soon and make a fool out of you on your own turf.