Post Corona...

[SirRumpole]

By the way Sdajii, is not just old people dying from covid, there was a 19 year old girl in Britain, and several working doctors in a number of countries have died from it.

I'd be careful if I were you.

 

[macca]

There was a time that I was of the "tough it out" view but the vital part of that is to minimise the spread of the virus.

The country that has done the best is Taiwan, they are used to these virus' that mysteriously keep arriving from nearby countries

They notified WHO of the virus months before WHO admitted it existed and was dangerous

Taiwan immediately mandated face masks for everyone when in public, free temperature checks and if you are hot then you have to go home and stay there.

WHO is still telling people not to wear face masks, why not ? WHO also says that the disease is spread through exhalation of moisture in our breath, I find it very suss , spread by breath, don't mask up to stop it ?

Obviously, the Western world cannot continue like it is now, if we do then the richest country in the world will gleefully buy up distressed assets like a vulture.

We need to question just why WHO does not want us to limit the transmission of this virus.

To me it is a no brainer, the Govt has ordered a lot of limitations on us, both business and socially, many people would gladly accept wearing a mask in public in exchange for a more normal life.

That is what Taiwan did from the start, they are coping better than anywhere, must be a message there somewhere

 

[macca]

There was a time that I was of the "tough it out" view but the vital part of that is to minimise the spread of the virus.

The country that has done the best is Taiwan, they are used to these virus' that mysteriously keep arriving from nearby countries

They notified WHO of the virus months before WHO admitted it existed and was dangerous

Taiwan immediately mandated face masks for everyone when in public, free temperature checks and if you are hot then you have to go home and stay there.

WHO is still telling people not to wear face masks, why not ? WHO also says that the disease is spread through exhalation of moisture in our breath, I find it very suss , spread by breath, don't mask up to stop it ?

Obviously, the Western world cannot continue like it is now, if we do then the richest country in the world will gleefully buy up distressed assets like a vulture.

We need to question just why WHO does not want us to limit the transmission of this virus.

To me it is a no brainer, the Govt has ordered a lot of limitations on us, both business and socially, many people would gladly accept wearing a mask in public in exchange for a more normal life.

That is what Taiwan did from the start, they are coping better than anywhere, must be a message there somewhere

Further to this as of yesterday Taiwan is still open for business, a clip from online

<<So this is a case of, during special times, the government started to manage the capacity of critical supplies for people who are fighting in the frontlines. And I think this is very important. I think it’s because of experience. They experienced SARS, so they know that there’s going to be a shortage of PPEs very soon, and people are going to start hoarding masks. So, right now if you are in Taiwan, you could take your National Health Insurance card, and you could get masks. You could get 10 masks per week. So normal citizens could get 10 masks per week. So you could still go to school. You could go to work. You could take the Metro. And you can’t hoard masks, because you have to use your insurance card to get them

Sorry, I cannot get the link to work

But we can still do this, we are making millions of them now, issue the masks, make them mandatory in public for Everyone, it has been proven to slow the spread.

Once under control, we can go back to work still wearing masks as a first step, then build on that

 

[Some Guy]

I think the following main things could happen:

• We go more socialist in the next election, I think labor will actually win this time and update it's polices to be more socialist in general. I'm not saying doomsday everything going communist level.

• There will be tax adjustments due to both increased national debt and demand for greater subsidised services. If I had to take a gamble I don't think they'd up our already high base tax rate. They'd probably implement some of the following: Other countries charge a tourist tax, why not us?, tax loop holes such as negative gearing & franking credit rebates, taxing homes vacant for long periods of time etc.
  
  
• The government may use this pandemic as a post COVID-19 scare campaign against physical cash. The amount of cash we can physically withdraw and the amount of cash we can pay for a job, item or service may be lowered more than it already is. Like certain other countries we may start seeing more cash only stores and bank branches trialing out being cash free. This would mean less cash jobs and more tax paid by default, certain things may or may not increase in price because of this. I say this as some who rarely uses physical cash.
  
  
• I think people will become greatly reliant on free childcare for the following reasons:
• Free child care is a great way to close the gender pay gap and get more women into work in any field both in the long term and short term. Women tend to either take part time jobs, compromise career drive or leave the workforce for the short or long term due to kids. Free child care helps fix this to an extent. It does this without imposing quotas which can encourage unqualified token hires and sometimes loosening key entry requirements to get more women in.
  
  I strongly believe that this is one of the most dignified ways to help fix the gender pay gap and will prove it's self as been capable of doing this during the COVID-19 Pandemic, It also benefits a lot of society and doesn't just single out women.

• People will become reliant on it, the whole getting a costumed to a certain standard of living phenomenon.
  
  
• The economy and peoples jobs and past incomes are not gong to just come back because COVID-19 has been dealt with.

• There will be to many benefits to having free child care, all families can earn more if it's feasible for both to work full time and have free childcare for the kids which doesn't eat up most of a modest wage etc.

 

[barney]

Your condescending tone has hopefully increased with age; I'd hate to think you were this arrogant during your entire life. I'd also hope that when younger you weren't so prone to missing the point before deciding to smugly respond.

Geez @Sdajii I am seriously a bit shaken after reading your post .... no joke! After your comments, I went and re-read my post a couple of times to see how it was interpreted differently to how it was intended.

Given all the recent posts and tone of the thread over the last couple of days, I can see how my words could have been interpreted incorrectly, particularly if read from a different perspective. That interpretation was 100% not intended I can assure you, and I apologise unequivocally that it came across that way. The thought of appearing condescending, arrogant or smug makes me feel very disappointed as I am none of those. I will endeavour to write my posts clearer in future.

If I could rewind a bit and try and clarify what I was saying above ... hopefully I can word it better this time.

Firstly, I "liked" your previous post …. As I said earlier, I understand your points and actually agree with the essence of your view re not shutting the country down for an extended period … finding the right balance between amount of lock-down vs amount of infections is a tough job of course.

The reference to you being younger (like my Son) was not meant to condescending. It was more of an observation when you mentioned "having sex" ….. I thought, "he must be young cause I don't get to put that near the top of my list anymore!" … I tried to imply humour with the 2 Smilies to ensure it was taken the right way.

My Son and I have had discussions over the effects of the V both economically and socially. His views are similar to yours … Initially his views were a little more radical in suggesting just let the V run its course etc etc. I think most people agree that, that would be a recipe for global disaster.

I appreciate you are advocating sensible health and work practices, … but with the knowledge that there will likely be more virus related fatalities if we do 'relax' the social restrictions. Given we don't and won't have a vaccine for some time yet, how much social restriction that should be in place is an unknown quantity … but I do agree that the social impacts of long term shut down may have other dire consequences for many. Again, its a difficult balancing act.

My reference to "survival of the fittest" was not directed at your views personally. (More related to my Son's earlier thoughts, and a few others, who still suggest that we should 'let the V run'. (I didn't explain that in my earlier post which is one reason why the post was not as clear as it should have been. My error, and apologies.

Hopefully the above is more representative of my thoughts etc. Cheers.

 

[qldfrog]

I think the following main things could happen:

• We go more socialist in the next election, I think labor will actually win this time and update it's polices to be more socialist in general. I'm not saying doomsday everything going communist level.

• There will be tax adjustments due to both increased national debt and demand for greater subsidised services. If I had to take a gamble I don't think they'd up our already high base tax rate. They'd probably implement some of the following: Other countries charge a tourist tax, why not us?, tax loop holes such as negative gearing & franking credit rebates, taxing homes vacant for long periods of time etc.
  
  
• The government may use this pandemic as a post COVID-19 scare campaign against physical cash. The amount of cash we can physically withdraw and the amount of cash we can pay for a job, item or service may be lowered more than it already is. Like certain other countries we may start seeing more cash only stores and bank branches trialing out being cash free. This would mean less cash jobs and more tax paid by default, certain things may or may not increase in price because of this. I say this as some who rarely uses physical cash.
  
  
• I think people will become greatly reliant on free childcare for the following reasons:
• Free child care is a great way to close the gender pay gap and get more women into work in any field both in the long term and short term. Women tend to either take part time jobs, compromise career drive or leave the workforce for the short or long term due to kids. Free child care helps fix this to an extent. It does this without imposing quotas which can encourage unqualified token hires and sometimes loosening key entry requirements to get more women in.
  
  I strongly believe that this is one of the most dignified ways to help fix the gender pay gap and will prove it's self as been capable of doing this during the COVID-19 Pandemic, It also benefits a lot of society and doesn't just single out women.

• People will become reliant on it, the whole getting a costumed to a certain standard of living phenomenon.
  
  
• The economy and peoples jobs and past incomes are not gong to just come back because COVID-19 has been dealt with.

• There will be to many benefits to having free child care, all families can earn more if it's feasible for both to work full time and have free childcare for the kids which doesn't eat up most of a modest wage etc.

I genuinely believe free childcare will not be that important as there will be no jobs.....

 

[barney]

Once under control, we can go back to work still wearing masks as a first step, then build on that

Just on that point Macca .... (probably shouldnt be posting this but what the hell)

I know of someone who works in a high risk area (virus cases are involved) They were told by their superior ... you don't need to wear a mask .... Supplies are short and we need to save them for "more at risk" staff

Hopefully "supplies" are improving because if at risk staff are being rationed, its not a great senario for the wider community.

 

[Some Guy]

I genuinely believe free childcare will not be that important as there will be no jobs.....

At first but there is a long term and we will eventually recover. Also eliminating free child care could cut further jobs whilst the economy is recovering. This could look bad for the politicians, although I would't put it passed them.

 

[Smurf1976]

The economy and peoples jobs and past incomes are not gong to just come back because COVID-19 has been dealt with

The details are far from certain but this basic concept seems a given in my view.

This is not like a blackout, once the power’s back on everything’s back to normal. It’s more like an earthquake, it’ll be a slow return and it’s going to take a very long time cleaning up and rebuilding.

 

[satanoperca]

By the way Sdajii, is not just old people dying from covid, there was a 19 year old girl in Britain, and several working doctors in a number of countries have died from it.

I'd be careful if I were you.

You sound like the media, that is not a stat worth evening mentioning. Big whoopty.

How many people under the age of 20 in Australia die every year?

Actually how many people under the age of 20 die in the world population every year?

Give you a hint it is greater than 10,000

 

[macca]

Just on that point Macca .... (probably shouldnt be posting this but what the hell)

I know of someone who works in a high risk area (virus cases are involved) They were told by their superior ... you don't need to wear a mask .... Supplies are short and we need to save them for "more at risk" staff

Hopefully "supplies" are improving because if at risk staff are being rationed, its not a great senario for the wider community.

Hi Barney,

The masks in question are simple cloth masks designed to be used then discarded, they get 10 free ones each week, the aim is to stop the flow of air when we exhale from carrying the virus to the next person.

They are not the medical ones needed for close work by medical staff, I agree that they need to be reserved for anyone doing close up work

 

[matty77]

I can only assume when this mess starts to come to an end they will ease up on restrictions, stage 4 back to 3 and so on. I think this will be done state by state, no doubt VIC/NSW/QLD will be in pain the longest.

Then I can see certain social distancing staying in for a long time, 12 months or longer, also anybody traveling into Australia will need to go through extensive testing, even traveling interstate will be the same.

Possibly we could see restrictions even down to a local level or suburb if there is an outbreak.

Its just a matter of holding out for a vaccine and then we should be right, but nothing will be anywhere near close to normal until that happens I think.

 

[Sdajii]

@Sdajii I sense that you believe this pandemic is being used as an excuse to create a nanny state. Could you suggest by whom? As I see it vast majority of politicians seem to be singing from the same song sheet.

I think the powers that be would always like more power and will opportunistically take any opportunity to gain more and this one presents itself as an opportunity. I think this is obvious, and doesn't really require much comment, surely? As for the public, I am surprised and honestly disgusted at the extent to which Australians, particularly in Melbourne and Sydney, are so desperate for our rights to be taken away.

 

[qldfrog]

I can only assume when this mess starts to come to an end they will ease up on restrictions, stage 4 back to 3 and so on. I think this will be done state by state, no doubt VIC/NSW/QLD will be in pain the longest.

Then I can see certain social distancing staying in for a long time, 12 months or longer, also anybody traveling into Australia will need to go through extensive testing, even traveling interstate will be the same.

Possibly we could see restrictions even down to a local level or suburb if there is an outbreak.

Its just a matter of holding out for a vaccine and then we should be right, but nothing will be anywhere near close to normal until that happens I think.

Please please please, could everyone stops assuming a vaccine ..a working one..will ever exist?
It is NOT a given,we are not even sure we can not be infected twice, that would mean no vaccine..ever
Would be nice BUT...

 

[Sdajii]

I can only assume when this mess starts to come to an end they will ease up on restrictions, stage 4 back to 3 and so on. I think this will be done state by state, no doubt VIC/NSW/QLD will be in pain the longest.

Then I can see certain social distancing staying in for a long time, 12 months or longer, also anybody traveling into Australia will need to go through extensive testing, even traveling interstate will be the same.

Possibly we could see restrictions even down to a local level or suburb if there is an outbreak.

Its just a matter of holding out for a vaccine and then we should be right, but nothing will be anywhere near close to normal until that happens I think.

Everyone is talking about a vaccine as though it is a given that it will happen. A vaccine for a cononavirus has never been made. It has been attempted for decades but never accomplished. We can make a vaccine for some herpesviruses (such as chickenpox) with no trouble. We can't make a vaccine for other herpesviruses (such as Herpes simplex/coldsores or Herpes complex/genital herpes - it seems effectively impossible, it has been attempted by labs all over the world but there has never been a vaccine or cure). There are viruses like HIV which have had incredible amounts of research go into, and it is highly unlikely we'll ever get a vaccine. Human coronaviruses have been causing sickness in humans since before the advent of medical science, and it is in one of the categories for which there has never, ever been any vaccine worth using for any of them. If we are holding out for a vaccine for Mr. Corona COVID-19 China Wuhan Deathlab Virus, we are not holding out for something tangibly achievable, we are hanging out for one of the greatest ever medical miracles of medical science, which may be literally impossible. This isn't another strain of flu, and even flu vaccines, which are for flu, a totally different category of virus which is far, far easier to treat with a vaccine and vaccines are still not very effective.

It is insane to hold the country (or any other country) in this state waiting for such a thing.

 

[Smurf1976]

I am surprised and honestly disgusted at the extent to which Australians, particularly in Melbourne and Sydney, are so desperate for our rights to be taken away.

I'm not seeing anything to suggest that people are keen to have their rights taken away.

It's COVID-19 they want taken away not the kids playground, the tourism and hospitality industries or their job. That said, they want COVID-19 gone without killing random people all over the place in order to do it.

Thus far, the death toll globally is equivalent to having crashed over three hundred fully occupied Boeing 737-800's straight into a mountain killing all passengers and crew. If anything like that happened with aircraft then nobody would think twice about grounding the entire fleet indeed it only took two fatal crashes to actually ground the 737-MAX fleet globally.

Let it spread uncontained and it's entirely plausible that the death toll ends up substantially larger than World War 1 and 2 combined. That wouldn't be good.....

 

[Sdajii]

By the way Sdajii, is not just old people dying from covid, there was a 19 year old girl in Britain, and several working doctors in a number of countries have died from it.

I'd be careful if I were you.

You say this like I don't know.

If I point out a single suicide due to losing a job or business due to the lockdowns as though you are unaware they are occurring (though not being reported by the mediaas suicides almost never are), does that totally disprove your argument? Obviously not, which is why I'm not doing it.

Cherry picking individual cases is not relevant. If we were to do such a stupid thing we would be calling to ban motor vehicles, showers, eating with cutlery, having pet cats and growing rosebushes.

The relevant thing, which you seem to be missing, is that *more people* are going to die and be harmed by going down the path we are going than if we did nothing. I'm not at all suggesting we do nothing, I'm suggesting we go to the greatest extent possible without actively destroying people's lives.

I've personally already had multiple friends lose families, businesses (I've personally lost mine, I'm wiped out, it has destroyed everything I spent the last 3 years working on and will prevent me from living where I wanted to live, with the people I wanted to live with, my pets are dying slow horrible deaths and I'm prevented from being able to deal with that personally, when I last saw them I assumed I'd be back shortly. I have friends and loved ones I did not say goodbye to and I will be unable to see indefinitely, and some I will probably never see again, my life has gone from fantastic to a living nightmare and I friends in worse situations than mine, all absolutely caused by these measures and not the virus itself). My own personal situation is not relevant, there will always be individuals doing well and poorly, but it's now overwhelmingly obvious that more harm is being caused by these measures than prevented.

When someone loses their business, especially if they were at an early stage where they were in debt as many businesses are early on (thankfully I've only been wiped to zero, I have no debt), they can no longer care for their family. Their employees lose their ability to care for their families. Those people are no longer spending money which means they are not supporting other businesses. Even people who still have money become reluctant to spend. The contagion (economic, I'm not talking about the virus) is going to be huge. The virus is not going to eliminated by this anyway, only part of the damage caused by the virus will be mitigated. It is not a difference between no virus damage and 5% of the world's population dying (worse case estimate which is probably much higher than we'd see anyway). I have many friends in Asia who have lost their jobs or their family breadwinner has lost theirs, I've had many begging me to come and save them or help them to come to Australia so they can be safe, which of course I can't do. Many of them were already on the poverty line before this. Not to mention the change in attitude. Due to government scare propaganda designed to encourage people to comply with these ridiculous draconian measures, people are viciously blaming innocent fellow human beings. I've been in perfect health since before the patient zero got the virus, but while in Asia (I left in late February) I had people horribly verbally abusing me while walking down the street in neighbourhoods where previously everyone knew me and had always been lovely and friendly. In Australia you just need to jump on social media or to talk to people to see plenty of hatred towards people who express that they would like to visit a friend, go to a park, go to work or buy something. This isn't the attitude we should have towards fellow human beings who want to do the most basic things humans need to be happy and functional. Suicides have already started, lives have already been ruined, and we're still planting the seeds of a forest which is going to be growing for a long time.

But hey, one 19 year old died. I had absolutely no idea this virus had killed anyone, thanks for the heads up.

 

[Sdajii]

I'm not seeing anything to suggest that people are keen to have their rights taken away.

It's COVID-19 they want taken away not the kids playground, the tourism and hospitality industries or their job. That said, they want COVID-19 gone without killing random people all over the place in order to do it.

Thus far, the death toll globally is equivalent to having crashed over three hundred fully occupied Boeing 737-800's straight into a mountain killing all passengers and crew. If anything like that happened with aircraft then nobody would think twice about grounding the entire fleet indeed it only took two fatal crashes to actually ground the 737-MAX fleet globally.

Let it spread uncontained and it's entirely plausible that the death toll ends up substantially larger than World War 1 and 2 combined. That wouldn't be good.....

Jump on social media and you'll see plenty of people furiously, often very angrily calling for our rights of privacy and movement to be taken away. It's littered all over social media.

To say it's the equivalent of aeroplanes flying into mountains is simply an emotional way of putting it. Obviously those deaths are tragic, I am in no way wanting to play them down. I am not denying they exist. The death and suffering caused by the cure (which isn't even a cure) are worse. If I was to play similar emotional games to highlight the death and suffering caused by the choices our governments are making it would be similarly horrific and similarly invalid as an argument.

Obviously if actual planes were flying into mountains we would ground them. This would be because it would directly stop those lives being lost and cause few if other deaths. It would be quick and exact to put into place, it would not cause horrific death and suffering of its own, it would not have long term effects. That's why we would not think anything of doing it and why I would fully agree with the decision.

 

[Smurf1976]

The death and suffering caused by the cure (which isn't even a cure)

It may not be an actual cure but new cases diagnosed in Australia on 3 April were 76% down on the peak recorded on 22 March.

Assuming the data's accurate, that would seem to be an improvement.

 

[Sdajii]

It may not be an actual cure but new cases diagnosed in Australia on 3 April were 76% down on the peak recorded on 22 March.

Assuming the data's accurate, that would seem to be an improvement.

Sure, I'm not saying there will be zero mitigation of the problem. Obviously if you shut down the whole system you're going to have an effect on the spread of the virus. That's great. I've never ever said that won't happen. Again, this is like me pointing out the increase in domestic violence, suicide, business failures and saying "Assuming the data is correct, that would seem to be a problem"

I am saying the problems caused will be worse than the problems prevented, not that no problems will be prevented.

Keep in mind also, that even the 'flatten the curve' concept does not claim to significantly reduce the number of people who will eventually get the virus, it seeks to stagger them out over time. Yes, that's a good thing, I understand that and you don't need to explain it to me like you felt the need to explain that diagnosed cases are down as though I didn't already know, but it means the benefit is not as good as you are suggesting. If it needs saying, yes, people who get it later rather than now will be more likely to get hospital treatment, and yes, that's good. You don't seem to want to acknowledge my point though, which is that we are actively causing a massive problem which we didn't have to. That problem has only just started and is definitely going to get worse. I have friends who have had their families broken up (both due to travel restrictions and due to domestic violence) and in the usually quiet neighbourhood I'm currently trapped in I have been hearing an increased number of arguments from nearby homes. Usually I wouldn't hear any.