Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis + FX

[wayneL]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

The costs associated with TI are expensive,but so are the costs of being inolved in any business thats your own.Having been in business for the last 7 years,i can tell you that the costs of being with TI arent that much,if what they claim to offer is legit.For example if you wanted to buy an existing business,for every $1000 profit per week you need to spend approx $100,000 on goodwill.Now if the claims by TI are legit you should be able to make $1000 a week with an investemt of about $20,000,and the attraction is that it is possible to make much more than that with little additional investment

You're not buying goodwill, you are buying something you can get for free... worse still, a crutch. You are relying on the ability of someone completely outside your control.

 

[szandor]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

well supposedly you're buying an education.And basically i think for a complete novice to be successful without access to a live trading room and watching the so called pro's do their thing would be very hard,thats just my opinion being a novice.Now apart from the 7 grand and a few other bits and pieces,aren't the other costs assocciated just the cost of doing business,ie charts,brokerage,platforms etc?
Iam not trying to defend TI,iam not even a member,iam just trying to work out if an investment of my time and money will be worth the risk,ie are the chances of me making money realistic.
Also has anyone investigated the live trade room offered by puretick?They charge US299 a month for access and no joining fee?

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

This is what makes me sceptical. They talk about there system being 70% correct and making 50% on invested money per day or whatever ....etc.
If you do the maths you would be a raving idiot to sell it for anything.

take that system to the ES with 500 contract position.(plenty of volume to swing such size)
500 ES X 10 points per day(500*$50*10points) is $250,000

That's 5 million per month. you need 700 new customer per month to take that not including all the expensive marketing dept & sales & accounting you would need probably double.

It simply doesn't make sense. Stick a couple of traders in a room and make a couple of hundred mil a year

 

[wayneL]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

well supposedly you're buying an education.And basically i think for a complete novice to be successful without access to a live trading room and watching the so called pro's do their thing would be very hard,thats just my opinion being a novice.Now apart from the 7 grand and a few other bits and pieces,aren't the other costs assocciated just the cost of doing business,ie charts,brokerage,platforms etc?
Iam not trying to defend TI,iam not even a member,iam just trying to work out if an investment of my time and money will be worth the risk,ie are the chances of me making money realistic.
Also has anyone investigated the live trade room offered by puretick?They charge US299 a month for access and no joining fee?

Fair enough. But is the price for the education fair? That's my question.

Don't know puretick. Another mob that offers day trading edumacation is tradethemarkets.com who charge a monthly subcription fee... plus run the odd seminar. They seem pretty legit and would be a better proposition for beginners (as could puretick if legit). At least you can opt out well before laying out 7k.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

At 7k a pop, do you think the TI mob even need to trade? Nope. The money is in selling the system.

This is what makes me sceptical. They talk about there system being 70% correct and making 50% on invested money per day or whatever ....etc.
If you do the maths you would be a raving idiot to sell it for anything.

take that system to the ES with 500 contract position.(plenty of volume to swing such size)
500 ES X 10 points per day(500*$50*10points) is $250,000

That's 5 million per month. you need 700 new customer per month to take that not including all the expensive marketing dept & sales & accounting you would need probably double.

It simply doesn't make sense. Stick a couple of traders in a room and make a couple of hundred mil a year

'zactley.

 

[szandor]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

50% return on investment does sound like bull*hit,I thought they claimed a 71/2-10% return on investment,which is all I am hoping for.If I can consistently get a 71/2% return on my investment a day I would be very happy and more than willing to spend 7 odd grand to achieve this.

 

[TI Member]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Fair enough. But is the price for the education fair? That's my question.

Wayne,

In my opinion it is. The $7k buys you lifetime membership. That also buys you access to new indicators that someone else has developed and gone through the rigourous process of backtesting and live testing to ensure they work. That saves novice traders time and knowledge that most novices don't have. TI will be releasing a new indicator next week for their trading room and backtesting as well as live testing has shown that it has a success rate of 85%.

Of course you will now jump in and find some other reason to critise them however quite happly steer novice traders to systems that you acknowledge is BS. I find that most perplexing.

Trembling Hand - In relation to the percentage of successful trades. I am at over 70% and I ONLY trade the TI methodology.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

50% return on investment does sound like bull*hit,I thought they claimed a 71/2-10% return on investment,which is all I am hoping for.If I can consistently get a 71/2% return on my investment a day I would be very happy and more than willing to spend 7 odd grand to achieve this.

Its just dumb to even quote a return. I have never seen anyone but newbies and liars talk like that. Experienced futures traders simply don't talk in return on margin.

 

[TI Member]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Its just dumb to even quote a return. I have never seen anyone but newbies and liars talk like that. Experienced futures traders simply don't talk in return on margin.

Trembling hand,

I mean I have over 70% success in the trades I take. Not 70% return on margin.

 

[wayneL]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Wayne,

In my opinion it is. The $7k buys you lifetime membership. That also buys you access to new indicators that someone else has developed and gone through the rigourous process of backtesting and live testing to ensure they work. That saves novice traders time and knowledge that most novices don't have. TI will be releasing a new indicator next week for their trading room and backtesting as well as live testing has shown that it has a success rate of 85%.

Of course you will now jump in and find some other reason to critise them however quite happly steer novice traders to systems that you acknowledge is BS. I find that most perplexing.

Trembling Hand - In relation to the percentage of successful trades. I am at over 70% and I ONLY trade the TI methodology.

LOL

In two years time, you will think differently... if you survive (and I hope you do).

Cheers

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Trembling Hand - In relation to the percentage of successful trades. I am at over 70% and I ONLY trade the TI methodology.

That's great. As you have just gone live you must be ecstatic. I have been trading futures for years, full time nearly 3 and I have a win/loss at about 55%. At times its been as high as 90% for some weeks but my most profitable weeks were not the ones that had a high win loss ratio. When you have a couple of hundred trades done you can then start to judge your real expectancy.

 

[Trembling Hand]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

LOL, have finally started reading The New Market Wizards the very next line I read after my last post is from William Eckhardt,

the desire to maximize the number of winning trades(or minimize the number of losing trades) works against the trader. The success rate of trades is the least important performance statistic and may even be inversely related to performance.​

But boy does it help flog systems.

 

[chops_a_must]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

LOL, have finally started reading The New Market Wizards the very next line I read after my last post is from William Eckhardt,

the desire to maximize the number of winning trades(or minimize the number of losing trades) works against the trader. The success rate of trades is the least important performance statistic and may even be inversely related to performance.​

But boy does it help flog systems.

That's right. My most profitable futures trading strategy has been trading intraday breakdowns. Only just shy of 40% winners. But with an expectancy of about 1.2R, the winners are massive.

 

[conpute]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Hi,

Traders International is releasing a new indicator this week actually as stated by TI member, it is supposedly showing 85% success rate, it has already been launched to room subscribers already and will be launched to non subscriber tonight. I am not 100% sure on this but have been told by a few member that it will be only available in the room...non subscribers will get room access for 2 weeks for free to see the new indicator in action after which we will then no longer have access unless we subscribe...many of us non subscribers are hoping that it will be available to put onto our own esignals charts but I believe this is not the case at the moment, (one subscriber said this was to protect it from getting out to non members) but may be in the future. So the new indicator may not be available to all TI member. Until I have visited the launch session tonight none of this is confirmed, only what I was told by subscribers who have attended there launch already.

 

[conpute]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Timmy just to answer your questions.

"Now, whats the story with the $50 trading dome fee/month and the $30 fee every three months? Those sound like fees from a broker?"

Yes this is broker fees, we are encouraged to use the recommended broker as I there has been a discount arranged for us and the trading margins are reduce. We also recieve exceptional support as TI members...but I do not know what support level you get not being a member so have nothing to compare this to.

The Trading Dome I use is Strategy Runner, the is the dome of choice by TI and they run education classed on using and setting up this dome, so logically new members who do not have previous experience will choose this platform. TI state they get no kick backs from any of these parties, but as there are so many members they are able to negotiate on behalf of us all for better, service, fees margins etc.

"As to working out a trading plan that suits you ... isn't that what TI is supposed to provide?"

TI assist you in creating a trading plan you can send it in and they will critique your plan and assist you in getting it right for you. They do not put out one plan for all as this would assume we are all the same sort of trader. We are encouraged during our sim trading time to find a way of trading that suits our personality and build a plan from this. Some traders are aggressive traders will jump on more trades and take more risks. I am a very conservative trader, I take less trades waiting for high probability trades.

"trying to get onto a trade that is being 'called out' is an almost certainty of missing the entry"

The trades are not normally called out intime for you to get on them, rather they are discussed as they are forming as there is a probabal trade accuring on such and such trade, this is the confirming candle, then it is up to us as traders to decide if this trade meets our personal plan and if so get on to the trade when it has confirmed. The time to get on to a trade varies as you know, when the confirming candle has completed, you then need to get on at close price and as I said sometimes you miss out. This is not TI fault or the traders fault, sometimes it just moves off fast and you just miss out...this does not bother me, there is always another trade around the corner and we are taught never to chases a trade.

We use esignal charts as they are the charts used in the room, and they are the charts that TI support by way of full education in setting them up etc for the TI methodology.

Sor for beginners like myself it is best to go with the flow so that everything you are using for your trading is all supported in one place, with heaps of videos and classes to help you understand these platforms. You do not have to use these products though you may use any you choose, but you will need to know how to use them as they can not support every platform, so pick one and support it fully.
You may use any broker you wish, but if you have trouble with the TI recommended broker you may contact TI and they will act on your behalf to help clear up the matter, so you have a bit of added insurance that you are not just a number to some big broker firm. I have nothing but praise for the recommended firm, they have answered all my emails in less than an hour sometimes in 5 mins, and the trading desk pick up evertime with an actual person ready to help you. Not sure if this is because of TI or they are just a great borker firm.

As I have said Ti is fantastic, they have great training and support, a fantastic product, and if your consistent and disciplined I believe 100% that you can make a career out of trading the TI methodology, I would not continue on night after night if I though otherwise.

My only beef with TI is the small amount of room time your receive, the ongoing cost of the room and the possibility that with new indicators coming out over the nest few weeks may only be available in the room.

If the room amount is affordable to you I highly recommend TI, if your on a tight budget and can not afford the room then it will make the program very difficult for you.
Of course if these new indicators are as successful as they say and all the back studies etc. are correct then the room will be a small price to pay for there use I guess, but I still like to have everything on my own charts to manipulate as I see fit, to be dependent on the room is not a good option as they do have there amount of down times, issues and lag, like any program I guess.

Subscribers are also sms all potential trades, it states possible trade forming on such and such chart...this allerts you to go and have a look at your own charts or room charts and prepare for a possible signal..this allert service is only in pre market not cash market. It would not be possible in cash market as it moves to fast, and you are generally there watching anyway.

They are also introducing the ability to place trades in premarket by mobile, so if your were out, got a sms of a potential trade you can mobile in and say if it confirms put me in. That is a fantastic idea..and may also make the room subscription worth the $$.

I you have any more questions re TI I will answer them honestly.
I do not know if there is better programs as I was recommended to this by a family member and new nothing about day trading. I also wanted to be using the same program so we could support each other.

 

[julius]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Wayne you make a valid point re: revenue from selling the system

but the flip side of it is - if they didn't charge alot for the system they claim is profitable would you be more or less worried ? there has to be some incentive to sell the system right...

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Automated-Computer-Forex-System-Trade-4x-easy-MT4-EA_W0QQitemZ150223976010QQihZ005QQcategoryZ3769QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

same goes for the chat room - yes it is expensive & ongoing... but this means they have a vested interest in keeping the system working

there's a moral debate at play here because most of us who post on ASF are self educated (ie. forums), so the idea of paying for education doesn't neccesarily sit well

your right, 6 months down the track many people who forked out the 7k may have a different outlook, but from what I saw, at the very least they shouldn't be any poorer, which wouldn't be a bad start in itself. how easy is it to lose 7k trading derivatives ?

 

[Timmy]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Hi Con,

Have to apologise, from your first post it appeared you were having a tough time (and I am not surprised) but now I see you appear to to be fine. Belief is a great thing, please let us know in a few months time if it has tallied with reality.

supposedly showing 85% success rate

85% success rate, hey? Bullsh*t. Sorry but I don't know how else to phrase it.

Good luck Con

 

[chops_a_must]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

how easy is it to lose 7k trading derivatives ?

Incredibly.

Check out high probability trader's blog.

P.S. I'd love to see the results when everyone begins trying to enter on the same point and moving the market...

 

[julius]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Incredibly.

Check out high probability trader's blog.

P.S. I'd love to see the results when everyone begins trying to enter on the same point and moving the market...

link me please

 

[Rockhoundnz]

Re: Traders International - Trading S&P500 Eminis

Wayne,

In my opinion it is. The $7k buys you lifetime membership. That also buys you access to new indicators that someone else has developed and gone through the rigourous process of backtesting and live testing to ensure they work. That saves novice traders time and knowledge that most novices don't have. TI will be releasing a new indicator next week for their trading room and backtesting as well as live testing has shown that it has a success rate of 85%.

Of course you will now jump in and find some other reason to critise them however quite happly steer novice traders to systems that you acknowledge is BS. I find that most perplexing.

Trembling Hand - In relation to the percentage of successful trades. I am at over 70% and I ONLY trade the TI methodology.

I'm not so sure about whether 7K is worth it for what you get from TI. For the same 7K you can get 18 months or more in the Puretick trading room - and after a while of being in the room if you have 2 successive profitable months you can join the Puretick alumni where you pay almost nothing to stay in the room. That seems like much better value to me (which is one of the reasons I joined Puretick).

Time is a big factor in a trading education - many successful traders were losers for several years, but because they had sufficient capital they were able to turn themselves through the experience they gained by time in the market.