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Resisting Climate Hysteria
- Thread starter Mickel
- Start date
Sean K
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This could go in the hydrogen thread I suppose, FFI, WDS or here to highlight the folly of chasing the green hydrogen dream. Is it all over?
I was hoping it would all work out since the government put $70m of our money into it. Just how much money has gone into hydrogen projects to date? Maybe it'll all work out if we keep throwing money at it.
I think Tassie Labor are blaming the Liberals for the failure.
Woodside has pulled its Tasmania hydrogen project from the federal environment approval process, a year after big hydrogen export dreams for the Bell Bay site began to stall.
Two reasons caused Woodside to drop the H2Tas project, a spokesperson told Renew Economy.
The company was told the state EPA would need a revised plan to satisfy extra environmental factors such as marine issues, and the company’s view on Tasmania as a hydrogen hub has changed.
“In Woodside’s view, electrolysis-based hydrogen production in Tasmania is currently challenging, driven by the lack of availability of new renewable energy generation,” the spokesperson said.
“If appropriate in the future, Woodside may propose to submit a new Notice of Intent for the revised H2TAS scope.”
The H2Tas project was for a hydrogen generating electrolyser of up to 300 megawatts (MW) and could produce up to 107 tonnes per day of hydrogen.
The resulting ammonia, about 600 tonnes per day, was to be exported.
The project has been waiting in the RPBC queue for two years.
Feasibility studies with partners Marubeni Corporation and IHI Corporation suggested it was technically and commercially viable to ship the hydro- and wind-power sourced final product, ammonia, to Japan from Tasmania.
The final investment decision was supposed to happen in 2023.
But bigger tax incentives in other countries and a change in state government strategy shattered export dreams last year, when the Tasmania government said hydrogen grants would be only for companies looking to make hydrogen purely for the domestic market.
The Liberal government was concerned that Tasmanians would end up paying higher power bills because of the huge electricity consumption needs of the Bell Bay hydrogen proposals.
That move helped to ground major projects from Woodside, Fortescue and Origin Energy, all of which were planning Bell Bay operations.
It was supposed to be the location of Fortescue’s first hydrogen plant, but the company couldn’t lock in an agreement on low power price with the government.
And Origin hit pause on its 500 MW project in 2023.
The Able Energy/Iberdrola project in the area, a 260 MW electrolyser able to make about 105 tonnes per day, is the only major project that hasn’t been archived by its proponent.
The Bell Bay Hydrogen Hub was supposed to be running by 2028, and has $70 million and $230 million in grants from the federal and state governments respectively to revive it.
I was hoping it would all work out since the government put $70m of our money into it. Just how much money has gone into hydrogen projects to date? Maybe it'll all work out if we keep throwing money at it.
I think Tassie Labor are blaming the Liberals for the failure.
Woodside has pulled its Tasmania hydrogen project from the federal environment approval process, a year after big hydrogen export dreams for the Bell Bay site began to stall.
Two reasons caused Woodside to drop the H2Tas project, a spokesperson told Renew Economy.
The company was told the state EPA would need a revised plan to satisfy extra environmental factors such as marine issues, and the company’s view on Tasmania as a hydrogen hub has changed.
“In Woodside’s view, electrolysis-based hydrogen production in Tasmania is currently challenging, driven by the lack of availability of new renewable energy generation,” the spokesperson said.
“If appropriate in the future, Woodside may propose to submit a new Notice of Intent for the revised H2TAS scope.”
The H2Tas project was for a hydrogen generating electrolyser of up to 300 megawatts (MW) and could produce up to 107 tonnes per day of hydrogen.
The resulting ammonia, about 600 tonnes per day, was to be exported.
The project has been waiting in the RPBC queue for two years.
Big plans foiled
The original plan was to build in phases a whopping 1.7 gigawatt (GW) hydrogen export facility in the industrial Austrak Business Park, where Woodside locked in a long term lease in 2021.Feasibility studies with partners Marubeni Corporation and IHI Corporation suggested it was technically and commercially viable to ship the hydro- and wind-power sourced final product, ammonia, to Japan from Tasmania.
The final investment decision was supposed to happen in 2023.
But bigger tax incentives in other countries and a change in state government strategy shattered export dreams last year, when the Tasmania government said hydrogen grants would be only for companies looking to make hydrogen purely for the domestic market.
The Liberal government was concerned that Tasmanians would end up paying higher power bills because of the huge electricity consumption needs of the Bell Bay hydrogen proposals.
That move helped to ground major projects from Woodside, Fortescue and Origin Energy, all of which were planning Bell Bay operations.
It was supposed to be the location of Fortescue’s first hydrogen plant, but the company couldn’t lock in an agreement on low power price with the government.
And Origin hit pause on its 500 MW project in 2023.
The Able Energy/Iberdrola project in the area, a 260 MW electrolyser able to make about 105 tonnes per day, is the only major project that hasn’t been archived by its proponent.
The Bell Bay Hydrogen Hub was supposed to be running by 2028, and has $70 million and $230 million in grants from the federal and state governments respectively to revive it.
Sean K
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It will be interesting to see how the reef looks this year. I haven't been diving off Cairns for a year but am planning a short trip before Xmas on either Spirit of Freedom or Spoilsport. They go from Cairns to Lizard Island so centre GBR. In 30 years of diving this area I've seen it destroyed from cyclones, bleaching and in full colour. Last trip was the best I've seen it.
From Rob's link to the latest Reef Health Update:
July 2024 was the second warmest on record for global sea surface temperatures (SSTs). In the Marine Park, SSTs were 0.8 - 1.2°C above the long-term monthly average for July. The El Niño weather pattern’s neutral conditions are expected to continue into Spring and the Bureau of Meteorology predict there is a 50 per cent chance of La Niña conditions developing before the end of the year.
Last week the Australian Institute of Marine Science (AIMS) released its Annual Summary Report of the Great Barrier Reef Coral Reef Condition 2023−24. In some welcoming news, the 2023−24 Summary Report found that coral cover on the Great Barrier Reef is at regional highs in two of the three regions and has increased in all three regions.
This indicates that we can expect only minimal additional mortality beyond what has already been recorded from the 2024 mass coral bleaching event.
From Rob's link to the latest Reef Health Update:
Reef Health update | August 2024
This Reef Health update is based on data collected during July, 2024.July 2024 was the second warmest on record for global sea surface temperatures (SSTs). In the Marine Park, SSTs were 0.8 - 1.2°C above the long-term monthly average for July. The El Niño weather pattern’s neutral conditions are expected to continue into Spring and the Bureau of Meteorology predict there is a 50 per cent chance of La Niña conditions developing before the end of the year.
Last week the Australian Institute of Marine Science (AIMS) released its Annual Summary Report of the Great Barrier Reef Coral Reef Condition 2023−24. In some welcoming news, the 2023−24 Summary Report found that coral cover on the Great Barrier Reef is at regional highs in two of the three regions and has increased in all three regions.
Reef health summary for July
In-water surveys conducted in July found some coral mortality on a limited number of Reefs in all three regions of the Marine Park. Coral recovery was also observed across the Marine Park. Survey results show that very little bleached coral remains on the observed reefs, as current sea surface temperatures are below the threshold that typically causes bleaching.This indicates that we can expect only minimal additional mortality beyond what has already been recorded from the 2024 mass coral bleaching event.
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Reef Health update | August 2024
This Reef Health update is based on data collected during July, 2024.
It’s important to note that most of the surveys conducted as part of this Report were completed before the 2024 summer mass coral bleaching event.
Further surveys and monitoring over the next 12 months will help us to understand how much coral on the Reef has recovered from the 2024 summer bleaching event. The full impacts the 2024 mass coral bleaching event has had on the long-term trend on coral cover will not be known until the Australian Institute of Marine Science releases its next annual summary report of coral reef condition in 2025.
The Reef Authority is continuing work with the Australian Institute of Marine Science and James Cook University on the coral bleaching impact framework. The categorisation of this year’s marine heat wave and mass bleaching event will be made available later this year.
Aerial surveys findings | 17 April | 2024 coral bleaching event on the Great Barrier Reef
Ocean temperatures started building in late December, through January and again in late February throughout all three regions of the Great Barrier Reef, causing the highest levels of thermal stress on record.
Reports of coral bleaching in the southern region of the Great Barrier Reef prompted the first set of aerial surveys from 23–24 February 2024. Reef-wide aerial surveys were conducted in March following further reports of bleaching and based on spatial patterns of heat stress. These included both the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park and reefs throughout the Torres Straits.
In March 2024, the fifth mass bleaching event on the Great Barrier Reef was confirmed.
The aerial surveys indicate this event is one of the more extensive on the Reef. Almost half the reefs (46 per cent) in the Great Barrier Reef experienced record levels of heat stress. Nearly 60 per cent of reefs in the Great Barrier Reef were exposed to levels of heat stress that causes coral bleaching and increases the risk of mortality from bleaching. However, as with previous bleaching events, the full impact of the event will not be known for some time. Bleaching is variable, and in-water surveys are continuing.
Aerial survey results show 73 per cent of surveyed reefs in the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park have prevalent bleaching (more than 10 per cent of coral cover bleached) and 6 per cent in the Torres Strait. For the first time, extreme bleaching (more than 90 per cent of coral cover on a reef bleached) was observed in all three regions of the Great Barrier Reef. Very high bleaching (61-90 per cent coral cover bleached) and extreme bleaching (more than 90 per cent coral cover bleached) was observed on 39 per cent of reefs across the entire Marine Park, but concentrated in the southern and central regions. There was little to no bleaching observed on 94 per cent of survey reefs in the Torres Strait.
The most intense and prolonged heat stress occurred at inshore reefs in the southern region, with sea surface temperatures peaking at 2.5°C above average and 15 degree heating weeks (DHW)* at surveyed reefs. This is the highest levels to-date on the Great Barrier Reef.
*DHW – degree heating weeks is an important indicator used to measure the heat stress affecting corals. It is a measure of accumulated heat stress. When water temperatures exceed the average maximum summer temperature for extended periods, corals become thermally stressed and may potentially bleach.
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Another of those wonderful alarmist Guardian articles that failed in its prediction.
From September 17th, 2012.
12 years on, and still waitng for the "global disaster".
Mick
From September 17th, 2012.
12 years on, and still waitng for the "global disaster".
Mick
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Back in 2007, Al Gore, a failed politician with zero climate qualifications at all, was one of the recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize
So here we are today, 3 years from the end of the twenty year time frame, and ten years past the 7 year time frame, and we find that the Arctic is still putting ice down as it has for quite a few years now.
Mick
In his acceptance speech, Al Gore said that the Arctic could be ice free by 2014.
So here we are today, 3 years from the end of the twenty year time frame, and ten years past the 7 year time frame, and we find that the Arctic is still putting ice down as it has for quite a few years now.
Mick
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I am still waiting for all the climate activists to throw paint on Chinese artworks, or lie down on Chinese roads, or chain themselves to overpasses.
China once again increased its coal output, this guaranteeing another increase in CO2, and thus another nail in the worlds coffin boiling climate .
So where are the activists?
Mick
China once again increased its coal output, this guaranteeing another increase in CO2, and thus another nail in the worlds coffin boiling climate .
So where are the activists?
Mick
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Climate Change Demonstration Criticised for Blocking Traffic in Spain
A climate change demonstration in the Spanish city of Valencia has blocked roads and footpaths, causing havoc for local residents.
Critics of the demonstration say the event has caused disruptions, inconvenienced motorists and showed a disregard for everyday Spaniards. “It’s selfish. I’m all for action on climate change, but I don’t think this is the way to go about raising awareness to be honest,” one local resident said. “I don’t think the demonstration achieves anything. All it does is inconvenience and annoy people. I think there are better ways to get your point across”.
Others say the demonstration is downright dangerous. “What if an ambulance needs to get past? What if there’s some kind of emergency? The people responsible should be held to account. I think it’s time to stop these shenanigans now and let the people of Valencia get on with their lives”.
In photos: Deadly flash flooding in Spain kills at least 95 people
Spain's national weather service said it rained more in eight hours in Valencia than it had in the preceding 20 months, calling the deluge "extraordinary".
www.abc.net.au
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What happened in Spain ?
www.abc.net.au
What caused Spain's deadliest floods in decades?
Spain's flash floods were caused by a destructive weather system in which cold and warm air meet and produce powerful rain clouds, a pattern believed to be becoming more prevalent due to climate change.
www.abc.net.au
Sean K
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Lucky we've got #BlackOutBowen negotiating this for us.
Sean K
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The Taliban are at COP29.
They are after clean energy to support their young, developing, vibrant nation, and care about climate change.
Nothing more.
They are after clean energy to support their young, developing, vibrant nation, and care about climate change.
Nothing more.
wayneL
VIVA LA LIBERTAD, CARAJO!
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They are investigating collecting solar energy on the exterior of burquas and converting it to ammonium nitrate.
All for fertilizer, of course.
Sean K
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Sean K
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#BlackOutBowen has refused to provide a full costing of his renewables and batteries plan due to some commercial in confidence BS, but it seems like it might cost a little more than the $150b guestimate done by others thus far.
Since Federation, Australian ministers on both sides of the parliament have made major mistakes and misleading statements. But nothing in our history matches the looming renewable energy conversion financial disaster.
We now have financial details of the project from one of Australia’s leading cost assessors, Frontier Economics.
When last July Chris Bowen announced that $122bn would be needed for his renewables program to 2050 he did not include around $100bn in essential costs including an artificial economic return boosting mechanism. But that’s turned out to be just the start.
The Bowen calculations are based on “net present value”, or NPV, which involves calculating the final cost and adjusting it back to the current dollars. But commercial infrastructure projections work on what will actually be outlaid. Frontier have now done those outlay calculations to 2050 for the governments and now the public.
Frontier calculate that the nation faces a $650bn outlay to 2050.
On my calculations, by 2050 much of that $650bn investment must be scrapped. We then start again because the renewable facilities have a limited life. It is a potential national disaster and the consequent huge power price rises created by the $650bn cost will destroy the economies of Victoria and NSW, including their social welfare programs. There are better ways to reach zero emissions, and we must find them or follow the US under Trump.
This disaster has been created because Bowen and the state ministers did not start with a budget. Instead, they set out their aims with no idea of the cost. And they actually started constructing without a proper cost plan.
It is possible that the protests by farmers and landholders attempting to stop the hated networks being constructed will delay the projects sufficiently to avoid the worst of the disaster, so enabling a better plan to be worked out.
I was alerted to the Bowen error and the $650bn looming outlay by Shadow Minister for Energy Ted O’Brien when in a public speech on Friday claimed there was a hole in the Bowen figures that was much greater than $100bn.
Because of the national importance, the nation must look at just how a $122bn project becomes $650bn and then must be substantially replaced between 2050 and 2075.
Since Federation, Australian ministers on both sides of the parliament have made major mistakes and misleading statements. But nothing in our history matches the looming renewable energy conversion financial disaster.
We now have financial details of the project from one of Australia’s leading cost assessors, Frontier Economics.
When last July Chris Bowen announced that $122bn would be needed for his renewables program to 2050 he did not include around $100bn in essential costs including an artificial economic return boosting mechanism. But that’s turned out to be just the start.
The Bowen calculations are based on “net present value”, or NPV, which involves calculating the final cost and adjusting it back to the current dollars. But commercial infrastructure projections work on what will actually be outlaid. Frontier have now done those outlay calculations to 2050 for the governments and now the public.
Frontier calculate that the nation faces a $650bn outlay to 2050.
On my calculations, by 2050 much of that $650bn investment must be scrapped. We then start again because the renewable facilities have a limited life. It is a potential national disaster and the consequent huge power price rises created by the $650bn cost will destroy the economies of Victoria and NSW, including their social welfare programs. There are better ways to reach zero emissions, and we must find them or follow the US under Trump.
This disaster has been created because Bowen and the state ministers did not start with a budget. Instead, they set out their aims with no idea of the cost. And they actually started constructing without a proper cost plan.
It is possible that the protests by farmers and landholders attempting to stop the hated networks being constructed will delay the projects sufficiently to avoid the worst of the disaster, so enabling a better plan to be worked out.
I was alerted to the Bowen error and the $650bn looming outlay by Shadow Minister for Energy Ted O’Brien when in a public speech on Friday claimed there was a hole in the Bowen figures that was much greater than $100bn.
Because of the national importance, the nation must look at just how a $122bn project becomes $650bn and then must be substantially replaced between 2050 and 2075.
Sean K
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Tune into Sky News tonight for The Real Cost of Net Zero, a documentary put together by Chris Uhlmann, a reporter previously admired by the Left, but now a heretic as he's on the evil Murdoch Sky.
IFocus
You are arguing with a Galah
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Look forward to Chris's costing's if we don't go to net Zero?
BTW Chris was always a conservative.
Edit just watched the intro well he is just repeating what we have been saying over on the generation and storage thread....
Sean K
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Oh, didn't realise that. I thought his reporting on Their ABC and Nine was slightly Left.
IFocus
You are arguing with a Galah
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Nah used to be on the Insiders as a token conservative there were plenty of articles talking about him and his wife who I think was a labor MP.
Edit : Personal life
[edit]Uhlmann is married to Gai Brodtmann, who was an Australian Labor Party member of the House of Representatives for the Division of Canberra from 2010 to 2019.[21][22] Brodtmann is also a member of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute council.[
Politics
[edit]Uhlmann unsuccessfully contested the ACT 1998 general election for the electorate of Molonglo with the Osborne Independent Group.[16] The conservative group was named after Paul Osborne, who was strongly opposed to abortion, and advocated blocking both euthanasia legislation and any attempt to decriminalise abortion.[17] Osborne and Uhlmann fell out when Osborne moved to severely restrict abortion in the Australian Capital Territory.[18] Six years earlier, Uhlmann had written in support of establishing an abortion clinic in the territory.[19]
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The bit both sides are forgetting is that engineering isn't just concerned with making things work but it's fundamentally about making them work reliably and economically.
That last bit seems to be lost on politicians and indeed much of the population. Where we're going wrong in Australia is with taking "off the shelf" approaches rather than using our brains and taking a proper ground up engineering approach to all this.
That approach is how Australia managed to have the third cheapest electricity in the OECD a third of a century ago. Achieved despite relatively little hydro and a much lower population density than most other countries. Achieved by aggressive engineering approaches that drove down costs.
Versus today where in all honesty I could write a book on everything that's gone wrong. Ultimate cause = meddling by people way out of their depth. Trouble is, it's going to be rather hard to unscramble the egg there, there's no option that doesn't cost $ billions.
Sean K
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Versus today where in all honesty I could write a book on everything that's gone wrong. Ultimate cause = meddling by people way out of their depth. Trouble is, it's going to be rather hard to unscramble the egg there, there's no option that doesn't cost $ billions.
Sounds like an interesting project Smurf. I reckon there are going to be books written on this, get on to it before the lights go out.
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