Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

The future of energy generation and storage

Re: Do you have solar panels?

nice stuff smurf.:xyxthumbs

Is Tassie a net importer or exporter of electricity?

That's a bit of a hard question to answer since it depends on timeframe and what assumptions are made.

2013-14 = a net exporter.

2014-15 = net importer.

If we assume no climate change over the long term then = net exporter.

If we assume that the climate trends since the mid-1970's are not about to reverse then we're a net importer of either electricity as such, or of gas with which to run Tamar Valley power station (noting that importing electricity is currently the cheaper option rather than buying gas and that's likely to remain for a few years at least).

In the shorter term though, it really comes down to the market.

Broadly speaking for each state:

Qld = exports almost constantly.

NSW = imports almost constantly.

Vic = generally exports except at high demand times when it imports.

Tas = generally imports off-peak, exports at peak.

SA = historically a net importer but exports heavily at times of high wind generation in SA (especially when this coincides with low demand).

do you think that if large scale electrical storage became a reality, then it would work in favour of the most efficient coal plants, and cause a flattening of the price which may knock out peaking plants and new renewable developments?

Absolutely it will favour the most economically efficient plants regardless of technology. The rise of solar generation, which tends to peak when demand is high, has already done that to some extent. Financially, the lack of very hot days this Summer has pretty much stuffed a lot of the industry as most of the money is made in just a few hours each year and that didn't really happen this Summer. If you look at nominal prices this year then they're basically the same as 15 years ago - that's a pretty big fall once inflation is taken into account.

The only real exception is Queensland, which at 5.627 cents / kWh average thus far for 2014-15 is most certainly the home of expensive electricity (along with WA and NT). For NSW, Vic, Tas and SA it's in the 3 - 4 cent range.

As for peaking plants, the gas ones aren't in a good position financially going forward anyway due to the rising gas price. The broad trend at the moment is less gas and hydro for baseload generation being replaced with coal. Less hydro in the shoulder periods is being replaced with gas, until the gas price goes up some more and hydro pushes it out of the shoulder periods, thus leaving gas largely out of the market apart from the genuine peaks in demand. For the coal and gas operators that's a consequence of their operating costs. For hydro it's a case of knowing what others' costs are and taking advantage of that via storage. Solar, wind etc just generate when the resource is there so they don't "play the game" as such.:2twocents
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

Smurf,

What do you say about the practicalities of power generation using bio ethanol produced from sugarcane ?
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

Smurf,

What do you say about the practicalities of power generation using bio ethanol produced from sugarcane ?

There are retrofit gadgets that convert diesel generators, allowing a wide variety of fuels to be burned. I remember Eden Energy's "Optiblend": http://www.edenenergy.com.au/optiblend.html.
The article doesn't specifically mention bio fuels, so you'd have to ask them.
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

There are retrofit gadgets that convert diesel generators, allowing a wide variety of fuels to be burned. I remember Eden Energy's "Optiblend": http://www.edenenergy.com.au/optiblend.html.
The article doesn't specifically mention bio fuels, so you'd have to ask them.

I was thinking large scale. I saw something a while ago where Brazil I think were converting turbines that ran on natural gas to run on bio ethanol.

I'm sure it's possible, and if its practicable then it could be very good for cane farmers.
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

I was thinking large scale. I saw something a while ago where Brazil I think were converting turbines that ran on natural gas to run on bio ethanol.

I'm sure it's possible, and if its practicable then it could be very good for cane farmers.

ethanol might be ok as a replacement in areas that are currently having diesel trucked in, but gas delivered by a pipeline would be cheaper, unless there was subsidies or laws which warped the economics.

Here is a lecture given by an executive from the Dow chemical company, It's long but he give some great insights into the pros and cons of using different feedstock's for the chemical and energy industries, it really helped me fill in a few areas when it comes to understanding the economics of the industries.

Long story short, a lot of the proposed substitutes are fundamentally flawed.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Do you have solar panels?

ethanol might be ok as a replacement in areas that are currently having diesel trucked in, but gas delivered by a pipeline would be cheaper, unless there was subsidies or laws which warped the economics.

Here is a lecture given by an executive from the Dow chemical company, It's long but he give some great insights into the pros and cons of using different feedstock's for the chemical and energy industries, it really helped me fill in a few areas when it comes to understanding the economics of the industries.



Ethanol is a bad idea. Don't think it's economical either.

Shouldn't use food stuff to make fuel. There are other alternatives, like waste and landfill gases to feed the grids.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Do you have solar panels?

Shouldn't use food stuff to make fuel. There are other alternatives, like waste and landfill gases to feed the grids.

Totally agree, the only time I support it is when it's made using a waste product of an existing industry, eg the sugar refining or the flour milling operations. But even then, I guess you have to look for better opportunities to use the waste in animal feeds or fertilizers if possible, it depends on the waste.
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

I did half a page answer this morning around 6Am, and then ASF servers crashed on me:
asf down.jpg
So to summarise:
only ethanol from sugarcane and bio diesel from canola are positive energy wise:
basically ethanol from corn/wheat is only a result of subsidies in the EU and US
Crazy world...But with subsidies it can make sense to burn 2 litres of fuel to get less energy in ethanol and make a profit:banghead:
That is a first point
For sugarcane, the resulting ethanol has only interest if used as "condensed energy": aka fuel for mobile equipment(car), if you burn it in a turbine or power plant , you are much better off burning the sugarcane directly in a boiler;
The total energy from the raw sugarcane will always be higher than the ethanol produced by the equivalent sugarcane;
No energy get created..ever
So bio ethanol will never be used in power production, ever, in a rational world (which we are not) but it can maybe be usedin a fully fossil fuel free world for emergency generators in hospital/CBD or for peak time as a stored emergency supply
Am I mostly right Smurf?
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

Totally agree, the only time I support it is when it's made using a waste product of an existing industry, eg the sugar refining or the flour milling operations. But even then, I guess you have to look for better opportunities to use the waste in animal feeds or fertilizers if possible, it depends on the waste.
And I fully agree with you guys on the ethical side;
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

Smurf,

What do you say about the practicalities of power generation using bio ethanol produced from sugarcane ?

Technically it's extremely doable and very "off the shelf" in terms of what's required. Ethanol burns, and it's a clean burning liquid at that, which makes its' use in gas turbines or reciprocating engines not overly difficult with some relatively minor modifications.

In terms of resources it would be a tragic waste however, akin to using gold as road base. Using gas to generate electricity is bad enough but to take liquid fuel, and a premium "clean" one at that, and squander it in a power station is just silly. Ethical issues with ethanol aside, it makes far more sense to use whatever ethanol we're going to produce as a transport fuel (replacing oil) than to turn it into electricity that could be produced from so many alternative sources instead.:2twocents
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

No energy get created..ever
So bio ethanol will never be used in power production, ever, in a rational world (which we are not) but it can maybe be usedin a fully fossil fuel free world for emergency generators in hospital/CBD or for peak time as a stored emergency supply
Am I mostly right Smurf?

The simplest way to understand any of this energy stuff is this. With the sole exception of turning electricity into heat, whenever you convert one form of energy into another there will be losses.

Coal (chemical energy) into steam = losses in combustion and heat loss from the boiler itself.

Steam (heat) into mechanical power = losses in the steam turbine.

Mechanical power into electricity = losses in the alternator.

And so on, same principle applies everywhere with the only way to gain energy as such being to (1) extract more of it from whatever natural resource or (2) heat pumps don't produce heat, but they do effectively constitute a gain in practical terms when you can put 1kWh of electricity in and get 5kWh or heat coming out of the device. There's no magic, that heat just came from the outside air, but it could be considered as 500% efficient in the context of heating a room or heating water.

In practical technologies that we actually use, efficiency varies. Eg turning high moisture content coal into electricity is inherently less efficient than if the coal is dry and both are less efficient than a hydro turbine. Same with anything - a small petrol engine is nowhere near as efficient as a large diesel for example.

We already burn sugar industry waste to generate power on a modest scale in Qld. There's no need to add a whole lot of cost and complexity, plus energy losses, turning it into ethanol first.

About the only situation where I can see ethanol being seriously useful as a means of generating electricity is for running small portable generators in a confined work environment (eg a tunnel). Ethanol burns a lot cleaner than other liquid fuels and doesn't have the hassles of dealing with gas cylinders, so in that situation an ethanol fuelled portable generator could have an advantage in terms of worker safety (that is, less risk of carbon monoxide etc being a problem). But that's an extremely unique situation and LPG is another option if mains power can't be run to the site (or from a petrol / diesel generator outside) for some reason. It's a very trivial market at best.

Ethically and environmentally, I'm very much in favour of using legitimate waste to produce ethanol especially where that waste would otherwise be burnt or dumped. That's a sensible use of an otherwise wasted resource, with the ethanol then displacing the use of oil.

I am totally against the idea of taking food crops and converting them into ethanol however. Firstly there are ethical issues about land degradation, chemical and fertilizer use, impact on food prices etc but it is also fundamentally pointless since they are a net energy sink rather than a gain.

So I'd like to see waste put to use certainly but the idea of mandating a set level of ethanol in petrol and then turning corn or wheat into fuel is just dumb. :2twocents
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

It actually makes much sense and seems economically sensible already.

sounds good, I imagine city buses could do a similar thing.

The electric power trains certainly have the power to run heavy vehicles, Freight trains have been using electric motors powered by diesel generators for years.

And as he said, on vehicles that stop and start a lot electric motors are much better, conventional engines are not as efficient doing stops and starts, and waste fuel idling. That's why a lot of Taxis are switching to hybrids, because in city traffic they use the electric motor a lot.
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

Efficiency of an engine varies with load, it is not a constant relationship between energy input and mechanical power output, and that is true for any internal combustion, gas turbine, steam turbine or hydro turbine.

So far as diesel (or petrol or gas) engines in something like a garbage truck are concerned, there are two big problems.

First is that the truck spends considerable time stationary, during which time fuel is being burned with effectively zero efficiency. And since the engine needs to be reasonably powerful, in order to move the fully laden truck at a decent speed, it uses quite a bit of fuel just idling.

Second is that there are a huge number of stops and starts with movement - the truck moves forward a few metres at at time then stops again. A diesel engine is a one way energy conversion device. Diesel goes in and power is produced so as to move the truck forward. The truck's momentum, and that is most of the energy that went into getting it moving in the first place, is then dissipated as heat via the brakes in order to bring it to as stop and empty the next bin. Now repeat that process hundreds (thousands?) of times per day, every day. As an order of magnitude, there's probably somewhere around 2 million garbage truck stops and starts each and every working day in Australia. That's a lot of fuel burned and a lot of heat coming from the brakes.

Now contrast that with an electric drive system. It has zero idling energy consumption, the motor simply stops. And it can recover whilst stopping the energy used to get it moving in the first place. Electricity from the battery goes into the motor and gets the truck moving, the motor then works as a generator to charge the battery in order to stop the vehicle and empty the next bin. There's no huge energy dissipation via the brakes required.

So an electric garbage truck needs far less energy on board, via the batteries, than its' diesel (or petrol or gas) counterpart since it is inherently far more energy efficient in operation.

Even if the power was generated on the truck via a small diesel / gas driven generator, that would be far more efficient running at constant load and with regenerative when compared to using the diesel engine to directly drive the truck. Even better would be to simply charge the truck from the grid at the depot etc where it's parked when not in use. :2twocents
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

Hats off Elon, Lithium based storage, at a price to retail market at US$350/kwh of storage. Using the 10kwh Power Wall unit as a reference What is the usable amount of energy? To extract 10kwh from this unit would imply 100% depth of discharge(DOD).This type of use of Lithium based battery chemistry detrimentally effect the service life of these batteries. So what is the optimal Discharge percentage of the Power Wall and which Lithium chemistry is the Power Wall using?
Whilst Elon makes big of the fact that Tesla is opening their patent box for all to use, If you buy one of his cars try and do any modifications to or any maintenance. The following attachment is to a US Electric Vehicle bussiness Run by Jack Rickard's it goes into explicit detail as the conundrums with what are now being faced with regard as to what should be 'Your right to repair'. Jack,s not outwardly a highly engaging presenter but he's nothing if not across his subject. For those who watch, look for the 100+ used Model S Teslas on the lot in Chicargo, and Jcks insight.
http://evtv.me/2015/04/right-to-repair-why-it-matters/

Now back to home battery storage. What about a battery that has 100% DOD has been tested to date to 5000 cycles is made of non toxic non flammable cheap materials is highly tolerant to 'abuse' and is currently in commecial production. Prior to Elon's dump on the home energy storage market this battery was going to market at US$600/kWh of storage, I'm watching this space. The company is called Aquion, Gates has an interest.

http://www.aquionenergy.com
 
I have split these posts off from the Do you have solar panels? thread and created a new thread as the discussion has gradually evolved into the future of energy generation and storage.

I did half a page answer this morning around 6Am, and then ASF servers crashed on me:
View attachment 62507

If that happens again, go back to the same thread, start another reply and then click "Restore Auto-Saved Content" in the bottom left of the post editor. Posts are auto-saved as they are created and can be restored if the forum goes down or your PC crashes.

autosave.png
 
If that happens again, go back to the same thread, start another reply and then click "Restore Auto-Saved Content" in the bottom left of the post editor. Posts are auto-saved as they are created and can be restored if the forum goes down or your PC crashes.

View attachment 62538
Thanks Joe, was not aware and as you can imagine, the error notice was followed by a bit of imaginative language..
Good idea to create a new thread, this is an area which is being revolutionised
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

the batteries don't generate power, they just store it. So at first it will be a zero sum game in that any power a household stores for later use is power that isn't being fed into the grid for some one else to use.

eg. if my solar system isn't feeding into my neighbors house while I am away, because the power is charging my batteries, then the neighbors are more reliant on using the grid at large (transmission lines, substations, coal plant etc) than they would be if the power was being sourced locally from the surrounding un used solar generation.

The real value will be to swap peak time consumption with off peak. the power comapnies will die if enough people can do this as most of their profits come from abput 2 weeks of the year when consumption really spikes. if there's no more periods where electricity is selling for 10K a MWh and they have to make do with a ceiling price of < $100 it will make life very hard for them. A lot of assets will be worthless, especially gas peaking plant.

Even without solar panels, it could be worth someone installing batteries and charging them in off peak and then using the cheaper power during the day.

if the electricity companies are smart they'll jump on installing it fast to keep retail electricity costs down, otherwise the death spiral is assured.
 
Re: Do you have solar panels?

The real value will be to swap peak time consumption with off peak. the power comapnies will die if enough people can do this as most of their profits come from abput 2 weeks of the year when consumption really spikes. if there's no more periods where electricity is selling for 10K a MWh and they have to make do with a ceiling price of < $100 it will make life very hard for them. A lot of assets will be worthless, especially gas peaking plant.

Even without solar panels, it could be worth someone installing batteries and charging them in off peak and then using the cheaper power during the day.

if the electricity companies are smart they'll jump on installing it fast to keep retail electricity costs down, otherwise the death spiral is assured.

It would hurt leaking plants, but be good for the low cost baseload plants. Instead of having their plant maxed out and losing market share to peaking stations in peak times, and then sitting at 5% of capacity all night, they could just sit at 75% 24hours a day
 
Top