The future of energy generation and storage

[DB008]

The problem with lithium ion batteries, from my understanding, is they start dying as soon as they are produced.
From what I've read 5 - 7 years is their life expectancy, it may have improved.
If the life expectancy hasn't improved, the unit cost will have to drop considerably, to make them viable.IMO

Maybe lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) might be the go then?

 

[sptrawler]

Maybe lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4) might be the go then?

Also lithium air, is being used, this can accept a rapid charge and behaves somewhat like a capacitor. It all has a long way to go, but when the breakthrough does come, it will be a game changer.

I'm not convinced lithium is the answer, the energy density isn't there.

 

[sydboy007]

Probablly the wind farm haters will find issue with these too. I wonder what the recorded noise levels would be? Could see the possibility of some of them on the edge of parks providing electricity in cities.

http://www.wired.com/2015/05/future-wind-turbines-no-blades/

The Vortex’s shape was developed computationally to ensure the spinning wind (vortices) occurs synchronously along the entirety of the mast. “The swirls have to work together to achieve good performance,” Villarreal explains. In its current prototype, the elongated cone is made from a composite of fiberglass and carbon fiber, which allows the mast to vibrate as much as possible (an increase in mass reduces natural frequency). At the base of the cone are two rings of repelling magnets, which act as a sort of nonelectrical motor. When the cone oscillates one way, the repelling magnets pull it in the other direction, like a slight nudge to boost the mast’s movement regardless of wind speed. This kinetic energy is then converted into electricity via an alternator that multiplies the frequency of the mast’s oscillation to improve the energy-gathering efficiency.

Its makers boast the fact that there are no gears, bolts, or mechanically moving parts, which they say makes the Vortex cheaper to manufacture and maintain. The founders claim their Vortex Mini, which stands at around 41 feet tall, can capture up to 40 percent of the wind’s power during ideal conditions (this is when the wind is blowing at around 26 miles per hour). Based on field testing, the Mini ultimately captures 30 percent less than conventional wind turbines, but that shortcoming is compensated by the fact that you can put double the Vortex turbines into the same space as a propeller turbine.

 

[sptrawler]

Probablly the wind farm haters will find issue with these too. I wonder what the recorded noise levels would be? Could see the possibility of some of them on the edge of parks providing electricity in cities.

http://www.wired.com/2015/05/future-wind-turbines-no-blades/

I'm sure within the next 10 to 20 years, viable electric, hydrogen or hybrid passenger cars will be the norm. Also most households, will have solar/wind/battery combinations, that mitigate their power consumption.

However the electricity grid will still be required for industrial supplies, and backup for domestic supplies, therefore a way of funding it will be required.

 

[So_Cynical]

Something different - The Vortex .Bladeless Wind Generator.
~

 

[Smurf1976]

...still be required for industrial supplies, and backup for domestic supplies, therefore a way of funding it will be required.

And in terms of generation, households are a minority of overall consumption but a major contributor to peak load and costs.

The other 80% of the load isn't likely to go away anytime soon.

 

[sydboy007]

I'm sure within the next 10 to 20 years, viable electric, hydrogen or hybrid passenger cars will be the norm. Also most households, will have solar/wind/battery combinations, that mitigate their power consumption.

However the electricity grid will still be required for industrial supplies, and backup for domestic supplies, therefore a way of funding it will be required.

And in terms of generation, households are a minority of overall consumption but a major contributor to peak load and costs.

The other 80% of the load isn't likely to go away anytime soon.

Maybe we need to follow the California Govt and mandate sotrage within the electricity grid. Prob would have been cheaper, even with technology pricing of a few years ago, than the massive over investment that's occured within much of the network.

California has mandated 1.325 gigwatts of storage by 2024. This helps to make renewables a better deal for consumers as well as helps to limit the impact of peak demand on the network.

if only we had the foresight to encourage battery research and push the utilities to help with testing new technology to see what can be scaled to the grid. Might help us to grow a new manufacturing industry, or at the very least gain some IP that would be a source of export income.

 

[sptrawler]

Maybe we need to follow the California Govt and mandate sotrage within the electricity grid. Prob would have been cheaper, even with technology pricing of a few years ago, than the massive over investment that's occured within much of the network.

California has mandated 1.325 gigwatts of storage by 2024. This helps to make renewables a better deal for consumers as well as helps to limit the impact of peak demand on the network.

if only we had the foresight to encourage battery research and push the utilities to help with testing new technology to see what can be scaled to the grid. Might help us to grow a new manufacturing industry, or at the very least gain some IP that would be a source of export income.

Don'y worry about lack of foresight, in battery technology, it is the 'holy grail' there is billions of dollars going into battery research.
It is one area, the Government doesn't need to spend money, the private sector want to crack this one.
Whomever comes up with the viable battery, will be worth trillions.

 

[SirRumpole]

Is there any future for nuclear in Australia do we think ?

 

[sydboy007]

Is there any future for nuclear in Australia do we think ?

If the UK is anything to go by they've had to guarantee wholesale electricty prices of roughly $160 per MWh to get their latest reactor built.

To put that into perspective, east coast wholesale electricity rates have been under $50 and still on a downward trend.

Factor in that every doubling of PV production sees a 25-50% decrease in production costs, and I really don't see a bright future for solar. Once battery tech is starting to roll out then renewables become the cheaper option. Much lower risk as you have smaller projects. Faster to bring on line ie a solar far could be up and generating electricity in 12-18 months once fully approved.

Wind farms are still cheaper than PV for now.

We have so much renewables potential, we just chose to ignore it and continue to provide big subsidies to the fossil fuel industries.

 

[MrBurns]

I've reserved mine........

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

 

[sptrawler]

Is there any future for nuclear in Australia do we think ?

The only way I could see nuclear generation being installed in Australia, would be due to an environmental initiative, or if nuclear fusion reactors were developed.
If fusion reactors are developed, everyone will be using them, massive power output with little or no waste.

 

[pixel]

Don'y worry about lack of foresight, in battery technology, it is the 'holy grail' there is billions of dollars going into battery research.
It is one area, the Government doesn't need to spend money, the private sector want to crack this one.
Whomever comes up with the viable battery, will be worth trillions.

The problem is, the comer-upperers won't be Australian companies because the Canberra Vandals have killed the Australian Manufacturing Industry, leaving nobody capable of such innovation. Add cutting costs and corners in Education, the workforce will struggle with even the simplest tasks, like installing gadgets that have been sourced from abroad - at enormous financial drain that could be avoided and directed into "This Clever Country of Ours".

 

[sptrawler]

The problem is, the comer-upperers won't be Australian companies because the Canberra Vandals have killed the Australian Manufacturing Industry, leaving nobody capable of such innovation. Add cutting costs and corners in Education, the workforce will struggle with even the simplest tasks, like installing gadgets that have been sourced from abroad - at enormous financial drain that could be avoided and directed into "This Clever Country of Ours".

That's all very true pixel, add to those facts, our lack of global clout and small market place.
It is very difficult to see, how a viable ground breaking technology will be developed here.
We may well discover it, but overseas interests will either buy the company, and or the technology.

This is the awkward situation for Australia, small remote population, in a remote and expensive country.

Why develop here, when you can build the manufacturing plant, where the expertise, population and market is?

It is a bit like why we built our industries, in the cities, rather than in the bush, all the iron ore in the NW of WA yet the only blast furnaces in W.A were in the Perth region.
These were shut down ,well before the mining boom really took off, yet no one has suggested reopening or building a steel processing plant in W.A.

One would think we would have a competitive edge, on steel and petro chemical production, as we have the raw products here.

But it is obvious we can't even compete on these fronts, so to think we are going to develop world leading industries here, is bottom of the garden on the bong stuff.IMO

It a bit like Bill Shorten saying they will award 100,000 free degrees in engineering, maths, science etc.
Blind Freddy knows all that will do is lower the standard to fill the seats, as has been done with the whole education system.IMO

 

[DB008]

I've reserved mine........

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

Well done. Please keep us all updated.

Pictures when it happens and is installed.

Probably looking at between 8k - 12k (Tesla Powerwall, import tax/tariff + GST, Aussie tax, inverter, installation)

At the moment, l'm in the process of saving for a Solar Hot Water System (evacuated tube ~$4k), and a 3 - 5 kw solar system ($3k - $6k ). The biggest consumer of electricity in my place is hot water system and fridge.

 

[sptrawler]

Well done. Please keep us all updated.

Pictures when it happens and is installed.

Probably looking at between 8k - 12k (Tesla Powerwall, import tax/tariff + GST, Aussie tax, inverter, installation)

At the moment, l'm in the process of saving for a Solar Hot Water System (evacuated tube ~$4k), and a 3 - 5 kw solar system ($3k - $6k ). The biggest consumer of electricity in my place is hot water system and fridge.

With a 5Kw system and solar hot water, if you planned carefully, you could probably run on 0 imported power.

All you would need is a few deep cycle batteries, to run the fridge overnight and the t.v in the evening.

 

[MrBurns]

Well done. Please keep us all updated.

Pictures when it happens and is installed.

Probably looking at between 8k - 12k (Tesla Powerwall, import tax/tariff + GST, Aussie tax, inverter, installation)

At the moment, l'm in the process of saving for a Solar Hot Water System (evacuated tube ~$4k), and a 3 - 5 kw solar system ($3k - $6k ). The biggest consumer of electricity in my place is hot water system and fridge.

I've registered and will wait to see what the deal is.

 

[DB008]

Powerwall: Solar energy storage batteries 'set to transform Australian electricity industry'​

Australia's electricity industry is about to undergo a massive transformation, with the advent of cheap storage batteries for solar energy.

US billionaire Elon Musk, a co-founder of PayPal, this month launched a lithium-ion battery called the Powerwall that is expected to sell in Australia next year for about $5,500.

It was developed alongside his revolutionary Tesla electric car, launched late last year.

"You can actually go, if you want, completely off-grid," Mr Musk said of the batteries.

"You can take your solar panels, charge the battery packs and that's all you use."

Bloomberg new energy finance analyst Kobad Bhavnagri said the batteries would be "a complete game-changer".

"They come coupled with solar PV (photo-voltaic panels) that really enable consumers now to become their own new power stations."

Australia is expected to be one of the Powerwall's biggest markets due to the high take-up of residential solar PV rooftop panels.

Renew Economy editor Giles Parkinson said he predicted a massive response.

"It will happen quicker in Australia than it will happen anywhere else in the world because of the high retail prices," he told 7.30.

"We pay so much just to boil a kettle in the city and now we have a cheaper way of doing it.

"It's going to be about as big a change as we've seen in the telecommunications industry with mobile phones."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-21/powerwall-solar-batteries-to-transform-electricity-industry/6488230

 

[MrBurns]

The cost hasn't been assessed correctly the real cost of setting the whole thing up with solar panels etc is more like $30k

 

[qldfrog]

The cost hasn't been assessed correctly the real cost of setting the whole thing up with solar panels etc is more like $30k

hum I thought then did some raw figures (no gov rebate):

2 powerwall->11k
then 2x4kw system->10k
add a controller for powerwall and install yes not far from 30k but that would cover the need of a pretty goodhousehold
total 24k so not too far from your figures
in Brisbane area, on a year average my 4.5+kw system generates 5400kWh
so two 4kW systems should generate around 9.6kwh per day
plenty enough for standard household who cares a bit
on the grid, you pay:
qld agl:$1 +$2.8= around $4 per day
the system would repay itself after:24k/4=$6000 day or roughly 16y
and if you include interest,not very positive.but this is wo subsidies,
so we are nearly there