The future of energy generation and storage

[qldfrog]

A long time ago in Tasmania the Hydro used to set up a display at the Hobart Show each year filled with all sorts of contraptions for freezing your hands, making your hair stand on end, using your body as a battery, creating artificial lightning and so on.

Among those was an exercise bike hooked up to a translucent plastic tower with lights in it. The faster someone pedalled, the more lights turned on going up the tower - it topped out at 200 Watts from memory, which lit the rotating beacon up at the top of the tower.

A later version of the same thing used a treadmill set up the same way.

Generating power by cycling or running is as I recall actually rather exhausting. Couldn't keep that up for long.

Do not spread that info too much Mr Smurf, the Greenies might decide even a grid is superfluous and windmill /solar panels too Co2 expensive

 

[qldfrog]

Thats why I suggested the batteries be subsidised.

So were the solar panels initially,now they are an asset transfer from the consumers/taxpayers to the generators

 

[Smurf1976]

Do not spread that info too much Mr Smurf, the Greenies might decide even a grid is superfluous and windmill /solar panels too Co2 expensive

I should add that there was a hand cranked refrigeration system as part of that display.

The two refrigeration coils consisted of a simple copper tube wrapped tightly around a supporting pipe to form a coil that was just the right size to grip with human hands (so like handlebars on a bike). Cold side place on the left, hot side on the right, and In the middle firmly attached to the bench was the compressor with hand crank much like an old vintage car starter crank.

Science education via getting kids to have a bit of fun. Crank the handle and one coil gets cold and the other gets hot which for those unfamiliar is how a fridge, freezer or air-conditioner actually works, albeit with an electric motor to drive the compressor (or driven from the engine in the case of a car).

Yes it took quite a bit of effort to turn it at any decent speed. Certainly wasn't something you'd want to use as a practical means of cooling anything - it was intended purely as entertainment / education.

I reckon we need things like that to make a comeback. Educating kids (and a few adults) on key physics, mechanical and electrical concepts by coming up with things that are presented as fun that they actually want to have a go at.

 

[SirRumpole]

I should add that there was a hand cranked refrigeration system as part of that display.

The two refrigeration coils consisted of a simple copper tube wrapped tightly around a supporting pipe to form a coil that was just the right size to grip with human hands (so like handlebars on a bike). Cold side place on the left, hot side on the right, and In the middle firmly attached to the bench was the compressor with hand crank much like an old vintage car starter crank.

Science education via getting kids to have a bit of fun. Crank the handle and one coil gets cold and the other gets hot which for those unfamiliar is how a fridge, freezer or air-conditioner actually works, albeit with an electric motor to drive the compressor (or driven from the engine in the case of a car).

Yes it took quite a bit of effort to turn it at any decent speed. Certainly wasn't something you'd want to use as a practical means of cooling anything - it was intended purely as entertainment / education.

I reckon we need things like that to make a comeback. Educating kids (and a few adults) on key physics, mechanical and electrical concepts by coming up with things that are presented as fun that they actually want to have a go at.

Maybe they should build a model power grid with wind turbines and solar cells powering model houses, and then switch off the fans and turn the lights(sun) down, so people can see how many of the house lights stay on and they ask themselves where can we get more power?

 

[sptrawler]

The penny is dropping throughout thinking Australia.
The same issues we are having with this transition in generation, the general economy is having, politicians are accepting they aren't experts and therefore they aren't listening.

Not going off topic, the underlying issue is exactly the same, politicians trying to morph fantasy into reality.

Aussie boss's brutal blast at nation's politicians: 'Get a REAL job!'

Billionaire business Gerry Harvey has blasted the nation's politicians saying they are ill-equipped to deal with the country's spiralling cost-of-living crisis because they've never had a real job.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[basilio]

I thought this story was quite profound. Mercedes Benz has developed a solar paint that operates at 20% efficiency.

It uses no expensive or toxic ingredients. Quite recyclable. Very cost effective. If used on cars it could gather enough power from the sun to eliminate external charging.

What could this paint do for houses, warehouses, factories, anything with walls ? Seriously game breaking.

Mercedes claims new 'solar paint' could eliminate daily EV charging ​

Here are the key claims distilled from the Benz press release:

• The solar paint would add just 5 micrometers (0.0002 in) of thickness and 50 g of weight per square meter (0.17 oz per square foot) to a standard paint job
• It would operate at around 20% efficiency
• An area of 11 sq m (118 sq ft), or roughly the painted surface of a mid-size SUV, "could produce enough energy for up to 12,000 km (7,456 miles) a year under ideal conditions" in Stuttgart, Germany
• That annual figure would be closer to 20,000 km (12,427 miles) in LA, or 14,000 km (8,700 miles) in Beijing
• It contains no rare earths, no silicon, no toxic or supply-limited materials
• It's recyclable
• It's "considerably cheaper to produce than conventional solar modules"

Mercedes claims new 'solar paint' could eliminate daily EV charging

Mercedes-Benz has unveiled a list of research programs and future technologies it's working on – including a "new kind of solar paint" it says could generate enough energy for up to 20,000 km (12,427 miles) of driving per year under ideal conditions.

newatlas.com

 

[Bellcose]

What could this paint do for houses, warehouses, factories, anything with walls ? Seriously game breaking.

Maybe. I remember the CSIRO earlier this year announced it developed the ability to print flexible solar panels. Another institution but I cannot recall which has been further researching solar panels which are able to create energy from both sides of the panel (Bifacial) which was first suggested as possible around five years ago.

 

[qldfrog]

Maybe. I remember the CSIRO earlier this year announced it developed the ability to print flexible solar panels. Another institution but I cannot recall which has been further researching solar panels which are able to create energy from both sides of the panel (Bifacial) which was first suggested as possible around five years ago.

Bifacial panels are already on the market obviously only worthwhile when space is at a premium .

 

[basilio]

I thought this story was quite profound. Mercedes Benz has developed a solar paint that operates at 20% efficiency.

It uses no expensive or toxic ingredients. Quite recyclable. Very cost effective. If used on cars it could gather enough power from the sun to eliminate external charging.

What could this paint do for houses, warehouses, factories, anything with walls ? Seriously game breaking.

Mercedes claims new 'solar paint' could eliminate daily EV charging ​

Here are the key claims distilled from the Benz press release:

• The solar paint would add just 5 micrometers (0.0002 in) of thickness and 50 g of weight per square meter (0.17 oz per square foot) to a standard paint job
• It would operate at around 20% efficiency
• An area of 11 sq m (118 sq ft), or roughly the painted surface of a mid-size SUV, "could produce enough energy for up to 12,000 km (7,456 miles) a year under ideal conditions" in Stuttgart, Germany
• That annual figure would be closer to 20,000 km (12,427 miles) in LA, or 14,000 km (8,700 miles) in Beijing
• It contains no rare earths, no silicon, no toxic or supply-limited materials
• It's recyclable
• It's "considerably cheaper to produce than conventional solar modules"

Mercedes claims new 'solar paint' could eliminate daily EV charging

Mercedes-Benz has unveiled a list of research programs and future technologies it's working on – including a "new kind of solar paint" it says could generate enough energy for up to 20,000 km (12,427 miles) of driving per year under ideal conditions.

newatlas.com

What I think will be really important will be working out ways to transfer the energy created. No indication as far as I can see of how this can be tapped.

Seriously though. This is a product one can cheaply spray on, and then add a protective sealant that will both protect and beautify a surface. And then it generates sufficient energy to make the building self sufficient if not an energy exporter. Wow... That is some feat.

-------------------------------------------
This story adds further information.

First experimented with on the 2022 Vision EQXX concept (pictured top), the German brand’s scientists initially thought the tech had limited scope for mass production until experiments were carried out with prototypes coated with the paint in real-world scenarios.

Instead of just coating the roof and bonnet to form a 1.8-square-metre surface area, one scientist suggested covering an entire car with the new solar paint, ramping up the surface area to more than 11m2.

Another difference to the EQXX concept is instead of wiring the body panels to the 12-volt system, scientists hardwired the body panels to the Benz’s high-voltage battery and the performance of the paint was well beyond expectations.

Even in Stuttgart the solar paint provided enough energy, on average over the 12-month period, to cover an average of 32km daily, with the test cars’ paint producing far more electric energy in summer months.

That number equates to 60 per cent of the average German’s daily commute on free energy.

...One engineer involved in the experimental trial told EV Central that early simulations replicating Australian sunlight suggests the paint should provide more than 55km of range in a single day.

That figure means most Australians would never need to manually recharge their car for their daily commute, with the paint providing more than 20,000km ‘free’ range over the average 12-months.

Combined with Mercedes’ bi-directional charging, the new paint could even end up powering appliances and even homes power outages in the future.

Available in all colours, engineers admit the solar paint work best in darker shades.

When it’s launched, the tech should be as durable as regular paint. The photovoltaic surface is protected by at least two protective lacquer finishes to ensure it isn’t damaged in daily use.

Manufactured without using any rare earth metals or silicon, the new solar paint is non-toxic and said to be made of readily available materials that are easy to recycle and considerably cheaper than existing solar cells.

There’s is one huge drawback with the tech which is there’s currently no vehicle architecture (including the all-new MMA platform primed for the next-generation CLA) that can incorporate the new solar paint.

That oversight is because even Mercedes-Benz never imagined its solar paint to be so efficient or so capable of transforming the sun’s rays into free energy.
So it seems straightforward to tap the energy. Seems like a piece of cake to do it for buildings.

Revolutionary! Mercedes-Benz solar paint could mean Australians never have to plug their EVs in again - EV Central

Revolutionary! Mercedes-Benz solar paint could mean Australians never have to plug their EVs in again

evcentral.com.au

 

[basilio]

11 square metres is less than 3m x 4 m. Yet it could generate sufficient energy to power a car in Australia for 20k a year.

So how much energy would be created off say a 10 met x 6 met roof or wall ? 5 times.

 

[qldfrog]

In the real world, trying to build power storage

$4b Borumba blowout revealed amid credit concerns

The cost of the Borumba Pumped Hydro project has blown out by $4 billion, taking the total cost to more than $18 billion, a new report from Queensland Hydro has showed. It comes as project cost blowouts and extra government spending threatens to put too much pressure on the state’s budget for it...

www.sunshinecoastnews.com.au

 

[SirRumpole]

In the real world, trying to build power storage

$4b Borumba blowout revealed amid credit concerns

The cost of the Borumba Pumped Hydro project has blown out by $4 billion, taking the total cost to more than $18 billion, a new report from Queensland Hydro has showed. It comes as project cost blowouts and extra government spending threatens to put too much pressure on the state’s budget for it...

www.sunshinecoastnews.com.au

So why do costs "blow out" ?

Are they under quoted in the first place to get the contract ?

Seems an example of why cheapest isn't necessarily best.

 

[Smurf1976]

So why do costs "blow out" ?

Old way of building things:

Engineering organisation with management being engineers.

In-house labour doing the work using company owned construction machinery.

Risk mitigated through the capability of the workforce to overcome problems both with engineering and construction approaches and with practically all costs internal.

Generally a lot of "ownership" among the workforce and a desire to make the project a success. Bearing in mind that as employees, it's in their interest that the company immediately follows this project with another one and for that to occur requires that it's deemed a success by management and other stakeholders.

New way of doing things:

Financial organisation with all top management non-technical.

Fully outsourced design and construction.

Risk is mitigated by wording of contracts absolving management of responsibility. That is, CYA for management not actual risk mitigation for the company.

Contractors make big profits on variations so they've no incentive to avoid them. Odds are they won't win the next tender anyway so there's nothing to lose.

Not every project is like that but most are.

 

[qldfrog]

So why do costs "blow out" ?

Are they under quoted in the first place to get the contract ?

Seems an example of why cheapest isn't necessarily best.

The decision makers (the NetZero-ers) have all incentives to underquote the cost: if it is no big deal, why not indeed go for "free sun and wind with battery and hydro storage".si you sell it as good for the environment, and cheaper for the consumer, a few reports from Csiro and the answer is here, like CO2 causing CC.
It is not debatable: "green is cheaper"
Anyone serious here knows it is not the case, but we can still pretend.
Germany burnt over a trillion Euro.... to reopen coal plants last year
I am sure Australian technical efficiency will put these messy inept Germans to shame

 

[sptrawler]

Germany burnt over a trillion Euro.... to reopen coal plants last year
I am sure Australian technical efficiency will put these messy inept Germans to shame

While closing down perfectly good nuclear plants, because of a tsunami induced accident in Japan, go figure.

Meanwhile Japan is reopening nuclear stations, while Germany reopen coal fired ones and close factories. Lol
Loonies in charge of the asylum.

 

[qldfrog]

$18 billions, 2MW max during at most 24h, after that, it is zero.
Remember, it does not significantly add any electricity to the system as no real catchment, just a giant battery .
So a hail storm nearby, the Widgee solar farm wiped out, and for a year, we have power cut daily
And this might also be the drop making Qld drop in agency rating and so costing even more in interest.
Loonies in charge indeed..
Now that ALP has been booted here, they will blame the LNP.
Whatever Mr @Smurf1976 diplomatically argues, this is political and our grid state is a direct representation of the CC loonies.
Ahh well

 

[SirRumpole]

Whatever Mr @Smurf1976 diplomatically argues, this is political and our grid state is a direct representation of the CC loonies.

Yes, ie the Greens, who oppose both gas and hydro, the two most viable firming solutions for renewables.

I don't think we will get anywhere until we get the Greens out of the balance of power, whether either Liberal or Labor are in power.

 

[SirRumpole]

Another "Green" project bites the dust.

Plan to turn Latrobe Valley's coal into hydrogen hits major roadblock​

Bid to turn Latrobe Valley's coal into hydrogen hits major roadblock

A world-first bid to turn the Latrobe Valley's brown coal into hydrogen hits a massive hurdle, after a major international partner backs out of a trial in the region.

www.abc.net.au

 

[SirRumpole]

What extensive research (ie ChatGPT) says about cost blowouts.

Whatever causes them they seem endemic in all sorts of projects from military acquisitions to sports stadiums.

Sell a cheap solution to the voters then keep making excuses when costs go up.

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why do cost estimates keep blowing out on infrastructure projects in Australia?

ChatGPT said:​

Cost estimates for infrastructure projects in Australia, as in many other countries, frequently blow out due to a combination of systemic, technical, economic, and managerial factors. Here are some of the key reasons:

---

1. Underestimation of Initial Costs​

• Optimism Bias: Project planners and stakeholders often underestimate costs or overestimate efficiencies, timelines, and expected benefits.
• Deliberate Lowballing: Some projects are deliberately under-costed in early stages to secure political or public approval, knowing the true cost will be revealed later when the project is underway.

---

2. Scope Creep​

• Design Changes: As projects progress, the scope of work often expands due to stakeholder demands, unforeseen challenges, or the inclusion of additional features.
• Regulatory and Environmental Requirements: Evolving regulations or environmental concerns can lead to design adjustments and additional costs.

---

3. Insufficient Planning and Risk Assessment​

• Inadequate Feasibility Studies: Poorly conducted feasibility studies may fail to account for geological, technical, or logistical challenges.
• Unforeseen Risks: Unexpected issues, such as challenging soil conditions, supply chain disruptions, or extreme weather events, can drive up costs.

---

4. Economic and Market Conditions​

• Material and Labor Costs: Rising prices for construction materials, fuel, and skilled labor can significantly inflate budgets.
• Global Supply Chain Disruptions: Delays and increased costs in sourcing materials and equipment, exacerbated by events like the COVID-19 pandemic or geopolitical tensions.
• Inflation: Prolonged timelines can lead to cost increases due to inflation, particularly in long-term projects.

---

5. Poor Project Management​

• Inefficiencies: Delays in decision-making, contractor disputes, and poorly coordinated subcontractors can increase costs.
• Inexperience: Government agencies or contractors without sufficient expertise in managing large-scale projects may mismanage resources and timelines.
• Lack of Accountability: Poor oversight can allow budgets to balloon without proper checks and balances.

---

6. Complex Approval Processes​

• Bureaucratic Delays: Lengthy approval processes for permits, community consultations, and regulatory compliance can delay projects and increase costs.
• Political Factors: Projects may be delayed or altered due to changes in government or shifts in political priorities, causing additional costs.

---

7. Large-Scale Projects Are Intrinsically Complex​

• Unpredictability: Mega-projects often involve numerous stakeholders, intricate logistics, and cutting-edge technology, making cost overruns almost inevitable.
• Unprecedented Challenges: Unique or first-of-its-kind projects face uncertainties that are difficult to predict in the planning phase.

---

Examples of Cost Overruns in Australian Infrastructure​

• Sydney Metro: The metro system has faced rising costs due to scope changes, delays, and technical complexities.
• WestConnex: This toll road project has seen cost blowouts due to land acquisition costs and expanded design features.
• Snowy 2.0: Australia's massive hydro project has faced significant cost increases due to tunneling challenges and environmental concerns.

---

Mitigating Cost Overruns​

To address these issues, experts recommend:

• Improved Planning and Risk Management: Invest in thorough feasibility studies and risk assessments.
• Transparent Costing: Ensure initial estimates are realistic and based on comprehensive data.
• Independent Oversight: Establish independent bodies to review and audit project budgets.
• Better Project Management: Use experienced teams with a proven track record of delivering large-scale projects on time and budget.

By addressing these systemic issues, Australia could mitigate the frequency and scale of infrastructure cost blowouts.

 

[sptrawler]

It looks like Woodside will get the green light, which will alleviate the gas shortage issue.

"Kick in the guts:" One of nation's largest and most polluting fossil fuel projects gets green tick | RenewEconomy

reneweconomy-com-au.cdn.ampproject.org